A buff for wiping in raid finder

100 Human Mage
12225
01/30/2013 08:57 PMPosted by Worgenbane
But giving a buff for wiping means that the bad players will just continue ignoring the mechanics and wipe the group til they have ten stacks and everyone can just stand in everything and beat it like they can now. It makes no sense.


People will try harder because they won't want to be in there for 3 hours since you will only get the buff if you actually make a serious attempt at the boss.
90 Orc Warlock
7195
01/30/2013 09:05 PMPosted by Astriel
People will try harder because they won't want to be in there for 3 hours since you will only get the buff if you actually make a serious attempt at the boss.
Really? You think so? The people who don't care and aren't trying and are sitting there AFK will still do so. The people at the top who have to carry them will be trying harder, but the people who are AFKing will still AFK since wipes mean it's easier for them to get carried.

It's a buff to griefers
100 Tauren Warrior
11510
01/30/2013 09:05 PMPosted by Astriel
But giving a buff for wiping means that the bad players will just continue ignoring the mechanics and wipe the group til they have ten stacks and everyone can just stand in everything and beat it like they can now. It makes no sense.


People will try harder because they won't want to be in there for 3 hours since you will only get the buff if you actually make a serious attempt at the boss.


I am quite sure that the people that just go afk and follow are going to try much harder for their loot.

FYI this text is dripping in sarcasm.
100 Human Mage
12225
Really? You think so? The people who don't care and aren't trying and are sitting there AFK will still do so. The people at the top who have to carry them will be trying harder, but the people who are AFKing will still AFK since wipes mean it's easier for them to get carried.

It's a buff to griefers


Don't know what LFR groups you have had but in all of mine going AFK for like 10 seconds will get you kicked.
90 Troll Rogue
11815
01/30/2013 09:00 PMPosted by Terrianmoose
If I understand the blue post right, they plan on making LFR mechanics less trivial while still providing enough fall back so groups don't feel too encumbered from wiping a bunch.


Thus making LFR take waaay to long. While there are some (id say very tiny group) who want the challenge of a raid but don't have the time to devote to a guild, that's what pugs are for and cross realm T14 raiding as well.

What I don't get is, if they're using this to tune LFR higher, wont this just recreate Cata heroic 5 man "disaster"? What's the difference really?
90 Orc Warlock
7195
01/30/2013 09:10 PMPosted by Astriel
Don't know what LFR groups you have had but in all of mine going AFK for like 10 seconds will get you kicked.
It's really easy to pretend to be doing stuff. People in groups I go in tend to not kick people because there's always a few people at the top carrying it. That's how it'll be with this buff, except there will be more incentive to not try.
100 Human Mage
12225
01/30/2013 09:17 PMPosted by Loktronotron
Don't know what LFR groups you have had but in all of mine going AFK for like 10 seconds will get you kicked.
It's really easy to pretend to be doing stuff. People in groups I go in tend to not kick people because there's always a few people at the top carrying it. That's how it'll be with this buff, except there will be more incentive to not try.


Or it could mean that people will be watching for AFKers more diligently and kicking them.
90 Orc Warlock
7195
01/30/2013 09:20 PMPosted by Astriel
Or it could mean that people will be watching for AFKers more diligently and kicking them.
Then why need the buff? If you wipe because people are AFK or griefing, and you kick them, you have the buff of getting potentially better people the next time. There is no reason to buff the group for wipes if you're being proactive about kicks. The only reason to buff is if the raid keeps wiping to due to those people who are just autoattacking and calling it good.
100 Tauren Warrior
11510
01/30/2013 09:20 PMPosted by Astriel
It's really easy to pretend to be doing stuff. People in groups I go in tend to not kick people because there's always a few people at the top carrying it. That's how it'll be with this buff, except there will be more incentive to not try.


Or it could mean that people will be watching for AFKers more diligently and kicking them.


And then what happens after you get the 4 hour kick timer because you are now kicking every afk? Now you NEED the buff in order to carry the afk that you can't kick for 4 hours because Blizzard made LFR harder which results in more kicks which in turn results in the 4 hour wait.
90 Troll Rogue
11815
Thinking some more on this, some other problems I can create: there is a 20 ilvl difference between LFR and normal so it won't be long before raiders have no use for the gear in LFR. Even the legendary items shouldn't take too many weeks to farm in LFR. So there will be less carriers, especially if LFR becomes a wipefest it then also becomes awful for valor generation.

I could even see raider alts (alts for fun, not raid alts needed for progression) avoiding it. With likely new crafted gear, combined with VP gear and the ability to get into any pug group, if LFR takes 2hrs or so and is frustrating, many will just skip that effort of gearing their alt.

Combine that with a harder difficulty. People will complain very, very much. So many people for various reasons want LFR to go fast. Some people want to raid but don't have the time, well a 2 hr LFR won't help. People want gear with no effort. Well, this requires effort to be done in a reasonable amount of time.
100 Human Mage
12225
01/30/2013 09:23 PMPosted by Loktronotron
Or it could mean that people will be watching for AFKers more diligently and kicking them.
Then why need the buff? If you wipe because people are AFK or griefing, and you kick them, you have the buff of getting potentially better people the next time. There is no reason to buff the group for wipes if you're being proactive about kicks. The only reason to buff is if the raid keeps wiping to due to those people who are just autoattacking and calling it good.


The buff is good for when you get groups of active but undergeared/minimally people.

Honeslty I almost never see people auto attacking in LFR. It is rare that I see someone pulling under 40k in HoF or Terrace.
100 Tauren Warrior
11510
Thinking some more on this, some other problems I can create: there is a 20 ilvl difference between LFR and normal so it won't be long before raiders have no use for the gear in LFR. Even the legendary items shouldn't take too many weeks to farm in LFR. So there will be less carriers, especially if LFR becomes a wipefest it then also becomes awful for valor generation.

I could even see raider alts (alts for fun, not raid alts needed for progression) avoiding it. With likely new crafted gear, combined with VP gear and the ability to get into any pug group, if LFR takes 2hrs or so and is frustrating, many will just skip that effort of gearing their alt.

Combine that with a harder difficulty. People will complain very, very much. So many people for various reasons want LFR to go fast. Some people want to raid but don't have the time, well a 2 hr LFR won't help. People want gear with no effort. Well, this requires effort to be done in a reasonable amount of time.


You forgot to add the fact that people will be complaining ---> ALOT <---more if they don't get gear every run, now that they are actually working for the gear.
90 Troll Rogue
11815

Then why need the buff? If you wipe because people are AFK or griefing, and you kick them, you have the buff of getting potentially better people the next time. There is no reason to buff the group for wipes if you're being proactive about kicks. The only reason to buff is if the raid keeps wiping to due to those people who are just autoattacking and calling it good.


The buff is good for when you get groups of active but undergeared/minimally people.

Honeslty I almost never see people auto attacking in LFR. It is rare that I see someone pulling under 40k in HoF or Terrace.


There would be only a minimal negative impact (outside of increasing casualization possibly with some of these LFR players clearing it and complaining about "way to hard normals" but all of that is theoretical anyways) of having this buff with a few more griefers trying to get higher damage buffs if the buff was the only thing they're changing.

But if they're going to make all of LFR like LFR Garalon and using this buff system to do it, then they're heading for disaster. 2 hr LFR isnt fun for 95% of the people. The other 5% who want a challenge without being in a guild have T15 pugs and Cross realm T14 heroics anyways.
Edited by Zulning on 1/30/2013 9:36 PM PST
100 Human Mage
12225
01/30/2013 09:34 PMPosted by Zulning
2 hr LFR isnt fun.


You can only run each LFR once a week.

2 hr Heroic dungeons are not fun. 2 hr LFR is fine.
90 Orc Warlock
7195
The buff is good for when you get groups of active but undergeared/minimally people.

Honeslty I almost never see people auto attacking in LFR. It is rare that I see someone pulling under 40k in HoF or Terrace.
You shouldn't be undergeared for LFR...
90 Troll Rogue
11815
2 hr LFR isnt fun.


You can only run each LFR once a week.

2 hr Heroic dungeons are not fun. 2 hr LFR is fine.


I raid 9 hrs a week in my guild. We are 4/16HM. (Many working on similar short amount of time are much further than us) I don't want to be stuck on 8 hrs a week on LFR. And that's not including queue time. If you want 2 hrs to clear bosses with randoms go do cross realm raiding or pugs.
Edited by Zulning on 1/30/2013 9:40 PM PST
100 Tauren Warrior
11510
01/30/2013 09:36 PMPosted by Astriel
2 hr LFR isnt fun.


You can only run each LFR once a week.

2 hr Heroic dungeons are not fun. 2 hr LFR is fine.


No. LFR is for people that don't have the time to commit to an actual raid. 2 hour actual raids are fine. 2 hour LFR defeats the purpose of LFR.
90 Troll Rogue
11815
The buff is good for when you get groups of active but undergeared/minimally people.

Honeslty I almost never see people auto attacking in LFR. It is rare that I see someone pulling under 40k in HoF or Terrace.
You shouldn't be undergeared for LFR...


What's sad is when people cheat their ilvl to get into LFR and still are top 10 in dps.....
58 Tauren Death Knight
0

Thus making LFR take waaay to long. While there are some (id say very tiny group) who want the challenge of a raid but don't have the time to devote to a guild, that's what pugs are for and cross realm T14 raiding as well.

What I don't get is, if they're using this to tune LFR higher, wont this just recreate Cata heroic 5 man "disaster"? What's the difference really?


The difference is that raiding is raiding, not 5 mans. If you don't have the time to do a raid, don't queue for it. For people who can only do LFR because they don't have a guild or can't commit to organized raiding but still have the skillset and desire to face bosses that have meaningful mechanics, it's pretty darn disappointing to deal with faceroll LFR difficulty. Like the blue mentioned, there is a broad range between trivial and impossible.

Essentially, if you wanna raid with people that are handpicked and can be vouched for, making LFR more "meaty" isn't ever going to hinder your ability to do that.
90 Orc Warlock
7195
01/30/2013 09:41 PMPosted by Worgenbane
No. LFR is for people that don't have the time to commit to an actual raid. 2 hour actual raids are fine. 2 hour LFR defeats the purpose of LFR.
That's what it should be. That's not what it is. When they tie tier and VP into it, LFR becomes necessary for every raider.
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