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I have returned to the priest forums from the PTR forums. I am here to provide additional feedback to Blizzard and the shadow priest community detailing why the shadow orb generation out of combat implementation needs to be taken seriously.
What kind of taste does the spriest community have in thier mouth after seeing those latest spriest nerfs?
Here are the links to the original threads.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592240989?page=1 (Deleted by Blizzard)
I have done my best to provide this thread with all of the relevant material from the original threads. I have also placed the relevant material into a logical "train of thought" that is easy to follow, This took many hours of in depth analysis and I am sorry if I missed something.
Provided below is the single most viable implementation of the shadow orb generation out of combat idea.
Hymn of Ill Omen : Consume nearby shadows, gaining one shadow orb every ? sec for ? sec. Can only be used outside of combat.
It has been confirmed that affliction warlocks have a soul shard generation out of combat implementation
Soul Harvest: You and your demon absorb nearby wandering souls, regenerating 2% health every second while out of combat. This effect is disabled in arenas
There was a breakthrough on developing a formula for passive shadow orb generation out of combat.
Alright, so I did an experiment using your example as a model. Thank you Pocketheal.
Edited by Dreamskull on 5/13/2013 2:16 AM PDT
Feedback Loop # 1
Specialization Stability Feedback
Having shadow orbs active before we start a fight with the enemy ensures we don't get locked down by them. Most shadow priests today are aware of this strategy and avoid getting into combat if they do not have any shadow orbs to use.
It certainly not the top priority for PvE, no. It's one extra Devouring Plague over the course of an entire fight.
Alucena #13 & 22
Its actually very strong for Shadow PvE the ability to start a fight with 3 orbs. At the start of the fight, almost, if not all your procs as well as your prepot are up so that first 20 seconds of the fight are one of the highest damage spikes so having a DP available in that span is quite a benefit.
They gave balance druids an ability similar to this, so I guess the same mechanics can work here as well.
They gave druids an ability similar to what we are suggesting. And seeing as blizzard thinks all classes should have the same structure for abilities (see homogenization in cata >_>), it would only make sense that we would. :/
Let's say you do 20 million damage in total during one boss fight. For one extra Devouring Plague to increase your total damage by, say, 2%, it would have to do 400k damage in total. With procs and a potion and everything, do you do 400k damage in total with just one Devouring Plague? Do you think that a 2% damage increase is significant?
Dreamskull #12 and 91
Doesn't shadow priest single target dps suck in PvE? Wouldn't this help with that? This change to the resource mechanic would be mutually beneficial for all aspects of shadow priest gameplay. Both PvP and PvE aspects of the game would b slightly improved. Best of all, niether aspect would not become overpowered because of this particular implementation. So where is this stinky fuss coming from?
Yes, a hymn of dark regeneration will solve all of our problems! lolohwait.
The contrarian nay-sayer is here! I knew I would see him eventually.Regardless of how great our arguements are or how flawless our logic is proven, he will not contrbute to our discusiion. He is a lurker on the forums that only seeks is to remind us how imaculate everything is and will be in the future. In his opinion, nothing about the shadow specialization is in need of revision or improvement. If anyone has an idea, watch out for Jaosix because he will certainly oppose it.
You realize we have 0 problems in PvP, and only about 1 problem in PvE (that being our single target dps is low compared to most specs) right? So explain why this "shadow orbs out of combat" idea would be a huge improvement to our single target dps? You can already just get 3 orbs on mobs before the bosses or even kill critters. It isn't that hard.
I am getting tired of people asking me to argue with them when the arguements they bring up have been laid out, explained in detail and assuredly resolved in earlier posts made on the same thread. It is ultimately a counter-productive loop because I have a nigling feeling in the back of my head that any arguement made will once again be ignored down the road when it is convienent to forget that it even existed in the first place.
Well repeating bad points again over and over would probably be a bad idea. Good call
Since the other shadow priests seem to be missing in action, it looks like I have to feed this troll and his counter-productive loop. Thanks a lot guys.The show must go on, could you please point to one?
Sure.I think both PvE and PvP shadow priests would agree that the above statement is top priority for our spec.
I would like to see some kind of reasoning placed behind this statement Jaosix.We need rational feedback behind our ideas before they can be considered justified
You requested some kind of reasoning behind the statement that Shadow Orb generation out of combat shouldn't be the top priority for our spec given that the problem to be fixed is our low single-target DPS. The link is to a post that shows that giving us three Orbs at the start of every fight would increase our total DPS by maybe possibly 2% (and in reality it would be less than that). I think it's safe to assume that Jaosix thinks that our single-target DPS is more than 2% lower than it should be, and as such it's reasonable to say that the top priority buff to our spec should be one that increases our DPS by more than 2%.
Those numbers are not backed up by evidence, but let's just say they are completely factual.
No. I'm telling you that, given that giving us a way to generate Shadow Orbs out of combat would increase our DPS by 2% or less, and given that our biggest issue is that our single-target DPS is significantly lower than it should be, I disagree with the notion that giving us a way to generate Shadow Orbs out of combat is the single most important thing that can be done for us.
Dreamskull #95 &97
Nothing better is going to come along. I can guarentee you that. Mark my words.
I am here to say that the shadow orb generation out of combat idea is the best idea we have.
it is the best idea you have. also, shifting the burden of proof is a logical fallacy. someone shouldn't have to prove your idea is good or bad. that is your job.
Holy !@#$ you're right! I don't have a mountain of feedback at the top of this thread that could be used to back up my claim! You've totally just made me look like a pathetic, dumbass troll who's only out for attention!
I think it would go a long way if you included why exactly spriests need this mechanic. your OP in this thread (and the linked thread) doesn't clearly state a problem, and why your idea would be a solution.
Alright, since you put me under fire...
That it's not needed anymore.
Not much of an Ambassador are you? That is such a blanket statement I can't even take it seriously.
I don't claim to be super good in PvP or even do PvE and I also don't have dozens of logs or anything evidence wise of why we don't need this.
The fact that you ingored #36 is insulting! Can't you read?
Who, what, where, when, why and how are basic tenets of healthy thread dialouge in case you didn't know. Don't even try to pass opinion off in this thread if you dont have justification for it outlined in detail. It is a mother!@#$ing peice of %^-* waste of time otherwise!
Edited by Dreamskull on 1/30/2013 7:38 PM PST
Feedback Loop # 2
Active Ability Generation Feedback
personally I don't really like shadow orbs, they feel out of place to me. I personally would like to see a passive shadow orb generation (out of combat) maybe one every 20-30 secs. definitely not from our channeled ability that would be taking a step back to cataclysm.
If anyone actually hates the shadow orb resource mechanic as much as they say they do, I would advise them to wait for the last patch of he expansion. I for one do not want to waste away the remainder of MoP on my hands and knees groveling for buffs because a few people wanted to see the shadow orb resource mechanic torn down.
I'm sorry... at what point did I say I hate them? all I said was that I dont particuly like them. I feel like they should be more than an indirect cooldown on devouring plague or gone. it seems silly to me to have a resource system in place to add a cooldown to one ability
Yes, it DOES seem silly to have a resource mechanic implemented in order to balance a specialization.
I vote for complete removal and a total rehaul. I heard that our secondary resource was very similar to pallies in cata (unsure if true), and they all said it was a bad, bad system. So why give them something else and us what they had?
I am not looking for whining nor am I looking for shadow orb generation in combat. That is not what this thread was made for to discuss and I highly doubt your contradiction of its purpose was made to be taken seriously.
I'm not whining, I just think it is not a very good system. This was proven with paladin's. Who said generating an orb every 8 seconds cannot be used 'outside' of combat?
People will whine about anything and everything. Just because someone whined somewhere about something does not mean that thier whining is automatically justified. You THINK paladins were whining about thier holy power resource mechanic in Cataclysm? Do you even know which specializations were doing the whining? Have you even played the Paladin class?
Ok first off, telling me to GTFO is not productive and is certainly not very nice.
I love how you just glanced over the entire post I made and ignored the substance therewithin as if it was hidden from you.
Here is an idea. Hymn of hope. Perhaps for shadow they could rework this spell to generate orbs and perhaps reduce the cooldown? Similar to soul harvest back in cataclysm. I am unsure if shadow priests in a pve setting have mana issues but, I think I could safely say they don't with the maintaining of VT.
You are finally being productive! Let's put the quarrel behind us and get back to what matters.
I proposed of this idea in this thread and feel like i'd be a great way to bring in ooc orb regen
I agree that replacing our hymn of hope would cause potential problems for progression guilds.
There was a hymn idea before even that post.
I think the key for our hymn idea is give us an extra spec based hymn for orb generation, because realistically, Hymn of Hope is still very useful to a raiding spriest.
Something to tweet to Ghostcrawler ;)
blizz nerfed the puntable marmot because of people able to generate rage/orbs/ whatever from it. so i think blizz dosent want us to get orbs out of combat....
How it should be...
Upon doing the research to compile the above list. I have discovered that shadow priests and affliction warlocks are in the same boat. Affliction Shards and Shadow Orbs are used to augment thier own specialization respectively.These augmentations are not linked to any healing abilities like the Holy Power and Burning Ember resource mechanics are.
This thread would be quite good, with a good idea and well presented..
Not really productive. Please keep positive feedback coming.
I said the idea was good, and well presented. That is positive feedback.
We cannot find an a simple implementation designed to fix everything right now. We may as well get something down that we can use to kickstart a developmental boom for 5.3. At least my implementation has room down the road to expand into further implementations. Just think of how this will affect everything and how it will inject Blizzard with inspiration to branch its original concept. I can think of a dozen further implementations right now that are spawned from this original launchpad implementation.
Edited by Dreamskull on 1/30/2013 7:56 PM PST
Feedback Loop # 3
Passive Orb Generation Feedback
Passive: Regenerate one orb every 12 seconds while out of combat.
Pretty sure they're capable of disabling the ability in instanced PVP environments, though not positive.
The passive orb generation is the second most popular method to generate shadow orbs outside of combat and is a plausible suggestion. However, I have a big problem with it. How do you create a passive effect that only works outside of combat from a development standpoint? I cannot think of even one similar effect used by another class' spec. If you can provide the details for it; I would be ready to support it.
3 Orbs? Why not 4, 5 or 6.....seems to be the theme with everything else.
if we are serious about wanting Blizzard to implement shadow orb generation out of combat, We have to stop giving suggestions to Blizzard that encourages further implementation of shadow orb generation in combat. It is terribly counter-productive to our entire arguement.
Not true. It's just giving them suggestions, period. Not like we want out of combat orb regen only. That would be cutting our own throat.
Please bring out the knife because that's the reason this thread was created.
Mana regen itself has different amounts when in combat and ooc. So there is one passive effect that has a difference between in and out of combat.It may not be the best example but it is an example.
You are correct, but how does that help Blizzard implement passive shadow orb generation out of combat? Health and Mana digits are up in the hundreds of thousands and still regenerate very slowly. Its regeneration is so slow in fact, we eat and drink to minimize having to wait for it on its own.
I suppose you are right, at least it is something.
Alright, so I did an experiment using your example as a model. Thank you Pocketheal.
Edited by Dreamskull on 1/30/2013 6:45 PM PST
Feedback Loop # 4
Shadow Word: Insanity Synergy Feedback
While obviously a way to generate 3 orbs before starting a fight would be nice, I'd settle if it was simply consistent -- even if that meant orbs degrade when sitting out of combat. As it is it feels more like a penalty when I can't begin with orbs than it does a bonus when I can.
I really hope they never let Orbs degenerate out of Combat.
I wish blizz just buff the mind flay damage. This will solve our low dps output in single target fights while not have much influence on PVP.
This would be a great idea.
Come on guys, give me something I can work with here!
I offered something but you completely ignored it.
It's not that simple. Buffing MF may bring it's DPET value higher than a FDCL proc, which would make Mindbender the only viable talent of that tier. You could buff FDCL proc damage, but they would have to buff Mindbender as well.
I didn't mean it as a solution just I believe buffing MF Damage to some degree would be a very nice change.
Making Sw:I not suck and be on par with the other talents will help and im sure a change to it is coming.
Do you think that the duration of Devouring Plague is enough to warrent a solid DPS increase using Mind Flay during its duration? If so, do you think it could rival the damage output and synergy of From Darkness Comes Light and Devine Insight? Even if this new implementation were to snynergize well with Twist of Fate or Power Infusion, I do not think it could be considered a wrecking ball compared to what we already have.
I have no idea if the new SW:I will be superior to FDCL or Mindbender.
for PVE, i don't care about PVP.
Currently on the PTR, you can cast instant spells while channeling MFI
They currently now removed the casting of instants while channeling SW:I.
That stupid, I saw your post while I was at work and got really excited because that something that could really help us.
Trust No One
I dont really think a shadow orb generation is our problem. I think maybe we might need a cooldown like Acendence, the demonform that warlocks get, Recklessness a warrior gets or something else that might raise damage for a short period of time and could possible start us out with 3 shadow orbs. I thinks they need to keep the ability to cast instants while channeling MF or atleast give us the ability to cast and move. And on the ptr our shadowy apparitions arnt doing damage if you are further than 10ft away from the target.
They won't give us a CD because A) We have Power Infusion(though it isn't great), and B) they changed DP to reduce our burst in PvP, giving us a CD would be a step backwards in what they are trying to do.
The shadow orb generation out of combat implementation would allow us to get max orbs in our pocket before the start of each fight. Having these shadow orbs at the start of each fight would ensure that we start our rotation strong with Devoruing Plague. In addition to Devouring Plague, if we decided to pick up the new and improved Shadow Word: Insanity, we would gain access to our new active effect and deal double damage with our Mind Flay. I believe that this is very similar to the idea you personally recommend.
Yeah I can see how that would be pretty nice. Im kinda torn between a passive generation and the channel thing. Im more of a visual person so if they add a cool looking visual to the channel thing I wouldnt mind that at all. I also wish they would change the visual of Apparitions. Its ok having shadows of your self slowly walking over there. But they adding a golden aparition and I kinda like how that works more than the shadow ones. They can have the shadow ones look a shadowy raven or skull or something else sinsiter fly over too the enemy. I just really dont like the walking affect of apparitions.
Edited by Dreamskull on 1/30/2013 10:24 PM PST
Really happy how you are continuing and putting this much effort in trying to get this implemented into the game.
Its a matter of balance. Buffs and nerfs are always inevitable.
However, the nerfs made to the specialization on the PTR are ground-breakingly crushing. We gain very little and lose too much. I hate to say I told you so; but if this implementation was factored in before those nerfs were forced upon the specialization, I believe the design of nerfs would have been much more fair and fluid.
My work is done and the case has been made.
Is there anyone in the shadow priest community still convinved we don't need this?
There is still time left before this patch goes live. Let the discussion begin.
Edited by Dreamskull on 1/30/2013 10:14 PM PST
Because of the recent nerfs made to the specialization on the PTR, I feel the need to also open this thread up to a discussion regarding any and all possible opinions regarding the nerfs. Do not be afraid to voice your concern! I will not hinder the dicussion for the sake of the implementation.
Let opinion flow freely!
Edited by Dreamskull on 1/30/2013 10:28 PM PST
90 Goblin Priest
To me, perhaps they are opening up the possibility of Mindspike not canceling dots. Then it would make sense to remove the glyph. It would be a huge help to Shadow and not unbalance PvE.
But they didn't say this. The nerfs seem entirely senseless. They've removed *ALL* of a Shadowpriest's burst. Phantasm not only cripples Shadow, it cripples Disc and Holy, and they were already struggling.
I generally don't do Chicken little. But with these patch notes, it's well justified. PvP as a Priest, in any spec, is over.
I generally don't do Chicken little. But with these patch notes, it's well justified. PvP as a Priest, in any spec, is over.
I am inclined to agree with that statement if these changes go live. It will become a grim reality.
Edited by Dreamskull on 1/30/2013 11:05 PM PST
This is totally ridiculous. Our healing outside of voidshift isn't game breaking. It's not any more op than warriors/hunters/dks/rogues/monks (4 of which don't even have a healing spec).
The Devouring Plague nerf is 100% uncalled for. So every 10-20 seconds I can hit someone for 40-80k damage, if I'm lucky. IF I don't need to use Pyschic Horror. That's NOTHING compared to what warlocks and mages can put out just to name a couple classes. Minimally they need to take psychic horror off the orb system and make VT instant cast. I'd almost be willing to trade that for this lame excuse for "balancing."
The Dispersion nerf is completely insane. Do Paladin bubbles get locked out? Does a mage's Ice Block get locked out? It's not even possible to lock out Deterrence, and that's on a 1 minute CD and can be used back to back with Readiness. Now all they have to do is lock us out and we are dead, NOTHING we can do. So we spend our entire time juking interrupts? So basically going against double melee teams we should just /quit, right?
Compare Phantasm to the Mage's Blazing Speed. We get snare/root immunity for 5 seconds on a 30 second cd, they get snare/root/stun immunity on a 15 second cd with a speed boost.
Our utility was ok, it wasn't the best in the game. Our off healing was ok, the only nerf that was "arguably" needed was removing void shift from arenas. But they didn't even do that. For us to use flash heal we have to leave shadow form (which increases damage taken) and completely stop damaging. Isn't that balanced enough? It's not passive like a lot of other classes have. Now, especially with the 30% battle fatigue, it's not even going to be worth having on my binds. 1.2 seconds of casting out of shadow form to heal for what? 25k health? Just take the spell out of the shadow spell kit completely.
What pisses me off the most about this is Ghostcrawler's tweet that priest utility needed nerfs. He didn't even say they need balancing. His exact words were, iirc, "can we get some nerfs to shadow priest utility already?" How unprofessional is that? Is WoW only in existence so that Ghostcrawler can play his mage? He should at least pretend to be neutral, but that is just blatantly biased. As a game developer does he not care about the final product that he puts time into? I never thought I'd abhor someone more than Nancy Pelosi, but he's really giving her a run for her money.
we are only suport class, ridiculs
rogues acumulate 5comb points with more easyl and fast that a shadow priest to gerenate 3 orbs, and we with no orbs = the mediocre dps
nerf heal, lol renew regen 7k for stick and rejuvenation of druid balance regen 21k is 3x more and ghostclawler nerf the spriest, lol
why the blizzard change not shadow priest to be a melee class, because we mobility is fail/sarcasm
only have fear like kittable skill, and many class remove fear . after we have only dispersion on cd = die
sorry i am brazilian my english is poor
vote to stick this topic
Edited by Maou on 1/31/2013 2:25 AM PST
I would like to see for shadowpriest, some sort of CD where you can generate 3 full shadow orbs. There could be so much potential with shadow orb, for example,
- 3 orbs is an instant cast for flash heal (doesn't break you out of shadow)
- increases bubble by per orb by 20%
- if you use orbs with fear, it applies a movement reducing effect 20% per orb after fear ends
- useing orbs, you can mindblast additional targets 1 additonal target, per orb
- use orbs to strengthen your shadowfiend dmg
there is alot of potential out there to make shadow priest a fun class. Was just brainstorming stuff.
Yep this is a blatent and rediculous slaughter of Spriest pvp, it's so hard to get to 3 orbs allready, nerfing it further is out of the question, CS's gone? reverted, what?????? mage buffs what????? re-rolling but very discuraged, gonna have to start the season behind, I feel bad for any one who loves Spriests, I can't even Imagine the Greats thoughts on this Talbadar, Zaddo, Kyrl.....GG Blizz GG
I would like to see for shadowpriest, some sort of CD where you can generate 3 full shadow orbs. There could be so much potential with shadow orb, for example, - 3 orbs is an instant cast for flash heal (doesn't break you out of shadow)- increases bubble by per orb by 20%- if you use orbs with fear, it applies a movement reducing effect 20% per orb after fear ends- useing orbs, you can mindblast additional targets 1 additonal target, per orb- use orbs to strengthen your shadowfiend dmgthere is alot of potential out there to make shadow priest a fun class. Was just brainstorming stuff.
this is a stupid idea its bad enough spending orbs to use horror let alone having to sac more damage to stay alive
been playing priest for a long time and this is the worst they have ever been especially shadow im not one for rerolling but my warlock is looking very good right now
* shadow orbs are like comb points and DP is the finishing of the shadow priest
rogue regenerates 5 combo points faster than shadow priest regenerates 3 orbs, while basic to generate 3 orbs is 24sec (MB 8sec cd x3 = 24sec) and has1.5cast without orbs spriest does not cause significant dps then someone dispel it and ... all over again
* heal, renew healing 7k per tick rejuvenation of the balance druid healing gear with the same 20-21k per tick and still has several kitting druid spells and mobility
* mobility, what is it? shadow priest has no mobility and no we do not have slow spells, (we can not use MF to distance) kitting only spell we have many classes can remover, is the fear.Pisifiend is dumb, sometimes cast fear in snakes of the hunter and not who you want, and phantasm will still be nerfed lol.
*pisithic horror,Blizzard needs to remove the orb cost of this spell , choose between CC or dps is ridiculous, if I need the terror i do not cause damage. Indeed have to remove these orbs that only serves to nerfed the shadow priest
why do not you delete the class?
sorry my english is poor i am brazilian
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