Shadow Orb Generation Out of Combat Part III

100 Undead Priest
13445
Two things I would like to say, here.

I am -most- concerned with the PvP aspect of Shadow Priests, as opposed to the PvE perspective.

Two things come to mind here, that are -constantly- being discussed (and, my God, the rage that emanates from some of these conversations), that I feel could be slightly changed/fixed, to be tipped in favor of Shadow Priests.

Shadow Orb Generation - yes, it sucks. At least, with one target it does, especially in PvP with interrupts, blanket silences, stuns, general CCs, Line of Sighting, implementing survival, the whole nine yards. My Shadow Priest is specced into "From Darkness, Comes Light" combined with the "Glyph of Mind Spike." It helps a little bit with the interrupts, makes it "safer" to generate Shadow Orbs. All that said, I agree - there needs to be a slight tweak to help Shadow Priests out.

I do have a concern with that, however. Devouring Plague hits like a truck - if we start every fight with a Devouring Plague, that hurts. I wouldn't doubt that, knowing Blizzard, getting to start every fight with an immediate Devouring Plague would mean a nerf to the damage it does, since we'd be "able to use it more."

Mobility - let's face it, Mind Flay is one sucky filler. Woohoo, it slows our target - big freakin' deal. That doesn't help us -at all- if the target is coming after us, and not someone else. So, why not let us move while channeling it? Hell, even if it's only -after- one second of stand-still channeling. Warlocks are going to have Kil'Jaeden's Cunning as a baseline thing, why shouldn't we be able to move when we channel our -only- ability with a slow effect, that doesn't do significant damage, is easily interrupted, and doesn't do anything in regards to generating Shadow Orbs. It's literally a line, between you and your target, that says "interrupt me, please."

Hell, let's take it a step further - why not combine both of these ideas? Scrap the damage on Mind Flay (or modify it to make up for any consequential effects in PvE), and design it to build a stack that lasts 'x' amount of time, and at 'y' stacks gives us a Shadow Orb. If channeled with zero Shadow Orbs, the caster can move while channeling, until at least one Shadow Orb is available to the Shadow Priest. Keep the slow effect.

There.
Now Mind Flay doesn't suck, the slow is worth something, we can still be interrupted, and we don't generate Shadow Orbs at an unreasonably slow rate. If this sounds too overpowered, by all means, modify it as necessary, I don't care. I'm just sick of half of my arena fights consisting of me not getting insta-cast procs, even with all DoTs up on both targets (which is rare, since I usually get bum-rushed), and having to sit on a Mind Flay that doesn't do -anything- for me or my partner. At all. Like, literally, nothing. Right now, as-is, it's a lovely way to get locked out of Shadow spells with interrupts.


That's a very interesting idea. I will have to give it some thought.

The changes made to Devouring Plague limits its burst potential. I do not believe that the shadow orb generation out of combat implementation would make Devouring Plague overpowered, especially in the current state of facemelting on the PTR..
Edited by Dreamskull on 1/31/2013 2:07 PM PST
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100 Undead Priest
13445
I seem to be smothering the conversation. I will setp back and allow this thread to breathe.
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/1/2013 6:18 AM PST
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90 Undead Priest
8305
What he meant to say is the combination of those other things with our off healing capability is what made us viable. Take out our off heals (which is what is going down) and what happens? Most of our utility is gone. Which means? We are brought in for mass dispel and void shift. So as long as you can use those abilities before you are blown up that's fine, right? At least they are still bringing you. Are we really complacent enough to accept that?

My point is that without our off heals we aren't viable. There are plenty of other classes that are much more useful for whatever other roles you are looking for. So if they are taking these things away they need to give us more in the form of pew pew and/or peels. (And if you are talking about psychic horror as a reason people brought a shadow priest I really don't know what to say).

We'll be completely viable. We're getting a PvP power buff for healing so our renews, poms, and shields will be stronger. It doesn't even matter if flash heal is getting nerfed. If you play at high ratings, the only thing you'll be able to cast anyways are instants because the other team is going to cross cc you everytime if they're pressuring your partner(s) that hard
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100 Undead Priest
12670
I've read most of this threads posts and I would like to put my thoughts on the matter.

I have haven't been playing much since just after mop came out. I stopped because I didn't like the new mechanic changes to the priest. Felt clunkly and boring. I felt like I didn't have direct control over how well or poorly I played. Too much "luck".

I've played since classic/vanilla beta and always loved my priest. Many people have bad experiances in cata pvp but I for one enjoyed the option to dot or burst on the fly. That broight a lot of excitement to the table and kept me entertained.

Ever since mop came out that entire experiance changed. I was disgusted at learning of all our flaws stayed with us and reciving even more support type abilities that we have already had a plethera of.

In addition to how the shadow orb mechanic was changed. It was the straw that broke the camels back for me. It was not fun, it was punishing, and we gained nothing to accomdate the inferior change.

So where am I going with all this?
It seems to me after not playing a bit (outsider looking in) that the problem everyone is looking at it how the shadow orb mechanic affects our dmg/burst/cc with dp and ph. My thoughts to this is instead of focusing how to make the shadow orb mechanic better suite our dmg or cc, why not tie it into our support spells directly or effect how our current spells act.

At first glance it may seem like how the warlock can alter his abilities using shard but stay with me for a sec.

Vamperic touch is not instant cast and is a pain to work around right?
Costing 1 orb = VT instant cast

We can't do any mass dotting right?
Costing 1-3 orb DP = empowered (shadow orb infused) DP cast on target with owners dots (vt and/or sw:p) will spread to as many nearby targets (5 yard range) as orbs consumed.

Increase burst dmg?
(Old old mechanic)
Cost 1-3 orb = mind blast and mind spike dmg increased 50-150%. Or each mind blast or mind spike damg increased by 100% and each time cost only 1 orb? Although currently casting mind blast grants and orb, we can move its orb generator to mind flay perhaps?

The goal here is to make shadow orbs become a secondary resorce again as it should be. It should not be used to cast our bread and better spells, it should be used to enhance them either mechanicly or in potentcy.

Obviously if something like this is implemented, our dp goes back to standard 1 target only dot like cata or something of that natural.

Other options can consist of including our support spells into the shadow orb mechanic such as...

Void shift = instead of healing lower health target to 25% it can bring it to 50, 75, 100% based on how many orbs used.

Vamperic embrace = increase healing and/or duration of spell.

Mind control (dominate mind talent) =
Instant cast

Powr word shield = a more powerful shadowy version of itself and/or without weakend soul debuff.

Physcic horror = addtional stun w/ current effects.

Those are some idea I just came up with.

I will conclude this post with another unrelated subject...

Shadow word: insainity...
I dislike the current and new implementation of this ability...

I loved dark arch angel...
I wish they brough that back in its place or in the place of power infusion.

They should make it dispelable to counter it, and it should allow the use of mind blast, mind spike and possibly mind flay to do increased dmg. Let's say flay on target with 3 dots will do 100% more damage. And mind blast and mind spike to targets w/o your dots does 100% -200% more dmg. (Numbers can be tweaked) but I want the choice to burst on command. Give it a counter if needed but I liked that choice back in cata.

That's it for now, thanks for reading.
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100 Undead Priest
13445
The Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm facemelting models failed us. Blizzard knows this.

The reason we have RNG in our burst is because Blizzard implemented Mind Spike with that wedge mechanic that normally removes our dots upon its cast. We have talents like From Darkness Comes Light and glyphs like Glyph of Mind Spike to better help us ease that wedge burden. We really can't have both dots and burst at the same the without RNG in there somewhere as a counter balance.

We cannot ever lose From Darkness Comes Light or Glyph of Mind Spike because it will bring us back into that era of gimped facemelting. We must always have dots on the target and we must always continue bursting. We cannot survive if we have choose between the two. Dark Arch Angel was the glorification of the wedge system that doomed us in Wrath of the Lich King and and Cataclysm.

The Mind Spike wedge between dots/burst should never be glorified again.
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/3/2013 1:07 PM PST
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100 Undead Priest
13445
Your idea on the shadow orb resource mechanic is exactly what I am trying to get everyone to envision.

The first step of that model is bringing in the shadow orb generation out of combat implementation.
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/1/2013 6:48 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
5630
i want spriest of LK back!! remove this Sorbs that nerf we class
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100 Undead Priest
13445
Rumor has it Monks are getting even more buffs in a future patch build. We are too overpowered? How overpowered are they gonna be when the patch goes live? What is the likelyhood of them getting a severe nerf in 5.3? Answer : Slim to none.

I have played this specialization since Day One. They have done this every single expansion. They have been getting better, but it seems they always end up slipping back into this nonsense! These changes are unfair and selectively discriminatory.

This patch is one of the worst I have seen in a long time.

You'd think that common-sense would be the flavor of the month every once in a while.
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/3/2013 12:02 PM PST
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I would rather see orbs drop when you leave combat then ooc regen.

OR

To have the !@#$ty resource that is shadow orbs removed from the game.
Edited by Captinawesum on 2/3/2013 4:01 PM PST
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90 Goblin Shaman
11545
I do find it funny when I snipe a critter with Mind Blast just to build orbs before a pull. Seems like a good change.
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100 Undead Priest
13445
A good specialization design can't be counted as just "somethin' somethin'."

It accounts for anything and everything at once. It is more integral than you relize.

We don't have a good specialization design; Therefore, we don't have a good specialization.
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/4/2013 12:10 PM PST
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100 Undead Priest
13445
A well designed specialization acts as a saftey net for our viability.

The core of the specialization is flawed. That means in order to stay viable we have to have a calvacade of abilities to make up for that after the fact. This is called "Ability Bloat." We suffer serious viability problems when indivual abilities get nerfed because we do not have a well designed resource mechanic to catch us when we fall when the individual abilities are nerfed. This is what Blizzard does not understand. Individual abilities will get nerfed eventually.

Does anyone want to fall into a net that has holes in it?

Well, get ready anyway because that's what gonna happen.
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/5/2013 9:51 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
3705
Nice topic, I support that.
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100 Human Priest
8485
Great idea, I hate having 3 orbs first attempt then all other attempts not having any. I just think a hymn of hope kind of system with a long cd and can't be used in pvp would be great, I see no reason why not.
Edited by Gregorh on 2/5/2013 10:32 AM PST
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100 Undead Priest
13445
About the Devouring Plague revert...

This is not a good change if this revert can be used as leverage against making meaningful changes to the specialization. They shouldn't be throwing us insignificant scraps of meat we were keen to get rid of in the first place if it means we have to go along with thier flawed logic.

This is what they should be doing to balance the specialization.

1. Revert Phantasm
2. Revert Glyph of Mind Spike
3. Give CC immunity to Dispersion
4. Implement the shadow orb generation out of combat implementation.
5. Revert the Devouring Plague revert (edit)

If they made those changes, I think we'd all be comfortable with the other nerfs.

As it stands, we will not see any meaningful change to the specialization because this was mearly a bribe to get us to shut up and submit to the nerfbat. I will be inclined to start thinking they don't give a damn about us if I don't start seeing some !@#$%^-ed common-sense design soon.

10,000 gold says its not coming this patch.

5,000 gold says its not coming this expansion.
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/6/2013 4:32 PM PST
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100 Undead Priest
13445
I don't know why I bother. I either have stockholme sydrome or am a battered housewife.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
9565
I used to play spriest, I loved it. It was very fun. I think the main reason that shadow orbs are not generated outside of combat is the PvP implications. Spriests are one of the strongest casters in PvP. Now, will starting a PvE fight with 3 orbs increase your DPS? No, I don't think it would increase it by even a few dps.

Ok so what would happen if spriests had 3 orbs at the start of every PvP fight? All that would do is increase the amount of facerolling and instant CC in this game and I don't think Blizzard wants that to happen.
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100 Undead Priest
13445
I used to play spriest, I loved it. It was very fun. I think the main reason that shadow orbs are not generated outside of combat is the PvP implications. Spriests are one of the strongest casters in PvP. Now, will starting a PvE fight with 3 orbs increase your DPS? No, I don't think it would increase it by even a few dps.

Ok so what would happen if spriests had 3 orbs at the start of every PvP fight? All that would do is increase the amount of facerolling and instant CC in this game and I don't think Blizzard wants that to happen.


They aren't gonna be any good after this patch goes live. Your argument does not take into account the recent nerfs that cripple us wholly nor does it take into account the feedback listed at the top of this thread. You are basically making a blind assertion from the standpoint of someone who knows next to nothing about the current standard of facemelting.

I bet this thread was a cheap thrill for you, wasn't it?
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/7/2013 9:41 AM PST
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100 Undead Priest
13445
Can we get someone in here who can offer us some reasonable insight on the current state of the specialization? I am looking for someone to read every post in each thread before replying to this one.
Edited by Dreamskull on 2/7/2013 9:53 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
7560
I would like to see for shadowpriest, some sort of CD where you can generate 3 full shadow orbs. There could be so much potential with shadow orb, for example,
- 3 orbs is an instant cast for flash heal (doesn't break you out of shadow)
- increases bubble by per orb by 20%
- if you use orbs with fear, it applies a movement reducing effect 20% per orb after fear ends
- useing orbs, you can mindblast additional targets 1 additonal target, per orb
- use orbs to strengthen your shadowfiend dmg

there is alot of potential out there to make shadow priest a fun class. Was just brainstorming stuff.


This !!
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