No PvP BM Hunters nerfs?

90 Night Elf Hunter
12805
This. Look at every hunter comp that has existed for the most part outside of Beastcleave. Almost all of them have been tied to one part of the team being OP and the hunter is just there for the ride.

Beastcleave was the only exception to this that I can remember, and it only lasted as long as the CC immune on BW lasted. Once that was gone for the hunter, you only really saw BM back in the pack again for Jungle Cleave when Feral druids were strong/OP.


Continuing on the 'history' quote that Whim mentioned, this is actually not the first time something like this has happened: back in the middle of Cata, I believe, the same situation developed, with Hunters essentially acting as the 'stalking horse', and Warriors blowing up the opponents when the opportunity arose. Once Warrior damage was nerfed, however, Hunter representation dropped back down again.

To be honest, I think most PVPing Hunters would like their role to be one of a complete contributor to the team, rather than just a gimmick... whether that'll happen or not remains to be seen, though previous history indicates it's probably unlikely.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16170
This. Look at every hunter comp that has existed for the most part outside of Beastcleave. Almost all of them have been tied to one part of the team being OP and the hunter is just there for the ride.

Beastcleave was the only exception to this that I can remember, and it only lasted as long as the CC immune on BW lasted. Once that was gone for the hunter, you only really saw BM back in the pack again for Jungle Cleave when Feral druids were strong/OP.


Continuing on the 'history' quote that Whim mentioned, this is actually not the first time something like this has happened: back in the middle of Cata, I believe, the same situation developed, with Hunters essentially acting as the 'stalking horse', and Warriors blowing up the opponents when the opportunity arose. Once Warrior damage was nerfed, however, Hunter representation dropped back down again.

To be honest, I think most PVPing Hunters would like their role to be one of a complete contributor to the team, rather than just a gimmick... whether that'll happen or not remains to be seen, though previous history indicates it's probably unlikely.


This is the point I was making. In cataclysm, KFC arose which saw the Hunter being a focal point of QQ but without people realizing WHY the Hunter was brought. Once Warriors were nerfed back to reasonable levels, Hunters disappeared again until the very end with the rise of Thugcleave which saw Hunters riding on the coattails of overpowered Rogues.

Beast Mastery, and the Hunter class as a whole, are basically just seen in Junglecleave and KFC since they provide mobile CC and moderate burst to allow their over the top Warrior and Feral partners windows to drop someone in mere seconds. Beast is only played over Marks because the burst capability is a little higher, still not very high after the 5.1 patch nerfs, to give you more bang during the window. Hunters just have more cosmetically going on during the burst which draws attention from their partner. It's the same thing that happened in BC with Boomkins and their Force of Nature being a major topic of QQ, despite it not dealing that much damage. It just caused panic factor and people were focused on the 3 things pounding their face in and forgot about a teammate rippin them apart.

Hunter rep is already going to see a drop next patch with the reduction in Arms burst output. We're playing supplemental burst and a support role, but the class can't really stand on its own. Our best "stand alone" spec is Marks but its design doesn't fit well with the current meta game of PvP.
Edited by Bullettime on 2/18/2013 8:39 AM PST
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90 Undead Priest
9900
No class can stand alone, so perhaps you can explain yourself a little better instead of pretending your class is weak.

There is nothing like Thugcleave right now because Rogues blow, etc.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16170
No class can stand alone, so perhaps you can explain yourself a little better instead of pretending your class is weak.

There is nothing like Thugcleave right now because Rogues blow, etc.


Stand alone as in, doesn't depend on being piggybacked by a specific gimmick/comp and can do well without riding on the coattails of the blatantly overpowered.

Beast Mastery blows chunks when not played in KFC and Junglecleave due to them providing enough damage to kill someone in seconds and provide a higher priority target that's right in your face mauling you.

Killing the pet is a perfectly viable strat and is what should be done, esp after the 5.1 BW nerf. It's also why Beast Mastery went from having a decently wide variety of comps before 5.1 to having only KFC and junglecleave as they mask that major flaw that's present in every other comp and is why Marks is getting more popular.

Hunters are back to being almost a gimmick that supplement and piggyback on the overpowered, the same spot they've been in since Wrath.
Edited by Bullettime on 2/18/2013 9:29 AM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
9710
Apparently Hunter Arena participation isn't high enough, so Blizzard will continue to buff them by giving them "everything under the sun" until participation goes up.

Moral of the story? If you want buffs, suck in arena as much as possible.


Why aren't warlocks getting buffed then?
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90 Undead Priest
9900

Stand alone as in, doesn't depend on being piggybacked by a specific gimmick/comp and can do well without riding on the coattails of the blatantly overpowered.


Hunters can do quite well without being piggybacked by a specific comp.

I can show you several teams of DK/Hunter/Healer above 2400. Are DKs overpowered? is this not "doing well" as you put it?

I can show you the same thing for Feral/Hunter/Healer. I can show you Ret/Hunter/Healer sitting at 2435, 4th in their battlegroup on live.

Perhaps you are simply wrong.
Edited by Multicidez on 2/18/2013 1:25 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Hunter
12805
02/18/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Multicidez
Perhaps you are simply wrong.


Hmmm. I'm in no way the best personal authority on this subject, having almost no interest in PVP, but from what I've seen from others that do... not necessarily.

The problem isn't necessarily that Hunters can't ever get to the upper ranking brackets, of course; that would obviously be grossly incorrect. The real problem is, though, is the people who have gotten that far... people like Megatf, back in the days of BC and Wrath (and of course the 'Free Megatf' movement), Bandet, Braindeady (I believe, though I could be wrong...) have said that it requires an almost inhuman amount of focus and timing to do so, far much so than other classes.

(Which also reminds me of one of Ghostcrawler's usually hilariously sad reasons about buffing Hunters being tricky, since it'd make the 'top 1%' overpowered... which of course they would be, because they've had to work twice as hard as everyone else to get where they are now. This is collaborated by the fact that most of the people who play top Hunters are also usually really successful with other classes too, which is also mentioned. Not that, of course, that concept has been grasped by the design-team.)

Also, ostensibly, of the teams mentioned, it *could* be the same as Thugcleave/KFC, or what have you, where the Hunter's more of a distraction than an actual contributing member... possibly. That comes down to conjecture, though.
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8 Goblin Warrior
0

Stand alone as in, doesn't depend on being piggybacked by a specific gimmick/comp and can do well without riding on the coattails of the blatantly overpowered.


Hunters can do quite well without being piggybacked by a specific comp.

I can show you several teams of DK/Hunter/Healer above 2400. Are DKs overpowered? is this not "doing well" as you put it?

I can show you the same thing for Feral/Hunter/Healer. I can show you Ret/Hunter/Healer sitting at 2435, 4th in their battlegroup on live.

Perhaps you are simply wrong.
There are dozens of Warrior/Hunter/Healer comps. There are always going to be a few in every class who will see success. All you are doing is pointing out a few teams played by great players, that's it. You are not actually proving your point.
Edited by Whim on 2/18/2013 3:15 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
15485
Interesting to come back to the game after 6 months and still see a lot of the same stuff.

Continuing on the 'history' quote that Whim mentioned, this is actually not the first time something like this has happened: back in the middle of Cata, I believe, the same situation developed, with Hunters essentially acting as the 'stalking horse', and Warriors blowing up the opponents when the opportunity arose. Once Warrior damage was nerfed, however, Hunter representation dropped back down again.


This is not true. Hunters were weak at the very beginning of Cata and then were strong for the rest of the expansion. 4.0.6 KFC was just the start - Jungle Cleave was one of the top-tier comps for most of s10, Ret-Hunter was pretty solid, Thug Cleave was one of the god-tier comps for all of s11, and even KFC was still good in s11. Hunters were only arguably weak before 4.0.6. Their instant CC made them ideal partners for any melee that could burst hard, because the CC onus was then put on the hunter and he could get ridiculous CC chains just by himself (scatter-monkey-trap-silence all on separate DRs). It didn't help that the opening Aimed-Chimera burst also took half of the opponent's health off on its own without any help from the partner. While Hunter representation never reached the levels of Warlocks/Rogues/Shamans, Hunters simply were not a weak class by any stretch of the imagination in s10 or s11.

The real problem is, though, is the people who have gotten that far... people like Megatf, back in the days of BC and Wrath (and of course the 'Free Megatf' movement), Bandet, Braindeady (I believe, though I could be wrong...) have said that it requires an almost inhuman amount of focus and timing to do so, far much so than other classes.


This is less true when Hunters don't NEED that to do any high-level stuff and instead can just do mongo damage on anything they choose.

This is collaborated by the fact that most of the people who play top Hunters are also usually really successful with other classes too, which is also mentioned


This isn't a phenomenon unique to Hunters at all. Most of the things that make top players as good as they are have nothing to do with class at all: you can learn the super awesome things to do with different classes in under a month or two easily without even playing at a serious level. It's mostly the stuff that transcends class boundaries, like being able to read opponents and know what's coming, which allows you to do stuff like, say, pre-Feint an incoming Deep, or Sac a PoM-Poly, or any number of other things. It's stuff like utilizing arena123 macros effectively for the important things. This is why you see people like Cdew able to play multiple classes (Shaman/Priest) at a r1 level, or Jahmilli (Shaman/Mage/Priest), or Reckful (Warrior/Rogue/Priest).

Oh DD forums, I've (not) missed you.
Edited by Algus on 2/18/2013 3:52 PM PST
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8 Goblin Warrior
0
Algus, Hunters did not actually do too well in Cataclysm. They rivaled DKs for the second and third class from the bottom in representation, were Sunwelled in RBGs, and suffer from Focus regeneration problems the whole expansion. And that was just the PvP problems. The whole class was left unfinished. Scatter-Monkey-Trap chains were the least reliable CC in the game. One dot and all that work was in vain and MM (the PvP spec) had some issues with it. Aimed Shot+Chimera Shot wiped the Focus clean and all it took was a casting slow to hurt them. Then other classes tell us to L2Jungyup when it was clear that while he is a freakish machine, he was also carried. Even you tried to hold up the top Hunter as an example of how the class was fine. There were a few comps that served to keep us at the top of the barrel's bottom crust.

BTW Welcome back.
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90 Draenei Shaman
15485
Algus, Hunters did not actually do too well in Cataclysm. They rivaled DKs for the second and third class from the bottom in representation, were Sunwelled in RBGs, and suffer from Focus regeneration problems the whole expansion. And that was just the PvP problems.


Representation-wise you are correct. RBG-wise you are correct. In regard to quality of life with their resource, you are absolutely correct. Hunters had problems. None of those things made Hunters a bad class though. Badly designed, yes; underpowered, not really. In addition, the problems did not stop Thug Cleave from being the one of the best comps in the game in s11, and not just solely because of the presence of Rogue. They did not stop PHD from winning Blizzcon 2011 either, defying all odds. It didn't stop a frankly mediocre KFC from knocking EG out of one of the later Yaspresents tournaments simply because Hunters had the ability to CC 2 out of 3 targets on the team while training one.

Scatter-Monkey-Trap chains were the least reliable CC in the game.


If you had left Monkey Blind out of that I would have agreed with you. Unfortunately Monkey-Trap removed almost the entirety of the luck factor for landing a trap, and shifted the luck instead to the other team being able to eat the trap. 9 times out of 10 a Monkey-Trap would land, even against a team who had a Warrior intervene or the healer standing right on top of a Lock's portal.

all it took was a casting slow to hurt them


This was (from an outsider's perspective) the single biggest problem with the Hunter class in Cataclysm - being doubly affected by both cast-time slows and by melee slows. That was completely stupid and indefensible, and Blizzard really dropped the ball.

There were a few comps that served to keep us at the top of the barrel's bottom crust.


Again, I don't really agree with this assessment. Considering how much of the workload the Hunter was carrying, I don't think it was as much the comp propping you up as the capabilities of the class and the players behind the monitors. As Thug Cleave, all the Rogue had to do was turret damage and then Smoke Bomb on something, and maybe Blind to get a trinket if they wanted to. A Hunter had to off-CC to prevent peels or heals (if Spriest present) while managing big burst, all while playing the pet minigame to get freedoms and sacs going (juggling multiple pets per minute if a Rogue present).

Look at now: the class suddenly has mongo damage on a much more consistent basis (much of that because of how mongo of a spec BM is) and Hunters are one of the top classes in terms of representation (last I checked, it has been a while so that may have changed). The huge damage makes Hunters not NEED the frankly obscene instant CC they have in order to be successful.

As I recall, we tended to make many of the same points, albeit in roundabout and sometimes loud and "NO YOU'RE WRONG!" ways back in Cata. I'd rather not get too into this before I hit 90 (even though I'm doing it on my Warrior first since he's been my main for...oh almost 7 years now) but maybe in a few weeks or so, if I don't unsub, I'll be happy to get back into the forum stuff haha.
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8 Goblin Warrior
0
Yeah, we did do that agree and argue at the same time. Kinda Like my family does with each other. I dang near did it again, good luck in Pandaria.
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