So we are killing for War crimes?

90 Blood Elf Warlock
15590


I hate characters that are angry all the time. If they aren't a Sith Lord, they have no reason to be all pissed off 24/7. Jaina needs to calm down, and listen to Varian, or Anduin.


No...she doesn't. It's fine for her to be angry. She has every right to be. Theramore was her home for years. She was responsible for it's people and their safety. Saying to have all that wiped out in an instant by the mana bomb was devastating to her and she has a right to seethe with righteous indignation.

Hell I want more characters like Jaina. People who realize that you can't make peace with everyone out there or that fighting may be the only valid answer. Right now the only way to end this war is to take out Garrosh(and possibly Sylvanas) as well as cripple the Horde's ability to make war. People like Anduin, don't realize that, and subsequently when they try to implement their own peaceful plans wind up paying for it in spades.

There is a time for talk and a time for fighting. This is a time to fight.


While I agree that disorginized hippees shouldn't run wars, Jaina isn't being rational with her anger. When she gets angry, she just flies off the handle and attacks any enemy without thinking of the consequences of her actions, just like Garrosh.
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90 Gnome Warlock
8985
02/01/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Valius
No Varian had no idea about Jaina's plans. Fel Varian's fleet would of been wiped out. IT WAS THE WRONG DECISION. Why do you think Kalec took Jaina to Orgrimmar and near Bladefist Bay? To remind her of how consequential the decision was.


Because Blizzard and apparently you, don't know how war works. I would take a few ships being capsized and a few soldiers dead to see that the Orcs were never again a military threat. It is wrong of you to assume that civilians automatically are exempt from an attack. Orgrimmar was a capital city true, but it was also the stronghold for the majority of the Horde. To ignore that is the pinnacle of military strategic ignorance.

The only mistake she made was not telling Varian to pull back his fleet, and even then the ends justified the means. Stop thinking in terms of right and wrong and start thinking about how to end this war quickly. The longer it goes on the more we weaken ourselves for the legion. If you can't get peace through diplomacy, then a concise and devastating victory would be the only reasonable alternative.
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90 Human Mage
13505
02/01/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Evilgenius
No Varian had no idea about Jaina's plans. Fel Varian's fleet would of been wiped out. IT WAS THE WRONG DECISION. Why do you think Kalec took Jaina to Orgrimmar and near Bladefist Bay? To remind her of how consequential the decision was.


Because Blizzard and apparently you, don't know how war works. I would take a few ships being capsized and a few soldiers dead to see that the Orcs were never again a military threat. It is wrong of you to assume that civilians automatically are exempt from an attack. Orgrimmar was a capital city true, but it was also the stronghold for the majority of the Horde. To ignore that is the pinnacle of military strategic ignorance.

The only mistake she made was not telling Varian to pull back his fleet, and even then the ends justified the means. Stop thinking in terms of right and wrong and start thinking about how to end this war quickly. The longer it goes on the more we weaken ourselves for the legion. If you can't get peace through diplomacy, then a concise and devastating victory would be the only reasonable alternative.


No I do know how it works. YOU are ok with your own team firing on your own men. What Jaina was going to do WOULD be an atrocity. I don't need to tell you how wrong you are.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
16160
02/01/2013 12:56 PMPosted by Zophor
And Orgrimmar is just as much a military target as Theramore was since it's the SEAT OF HORDE POWER ON THE PLANET. Civilians or no, if someone was to drop a nuke on your home and you survive somehow are you going to care about THEIR civilians if you have a chance at payback?


Orgrimamr is as much of a military target as Washington DC or Ottawa Ontario. You wouldn't wipe either of them clean off the map due to Stalingrad being destroyed.

It's the cultural capital of an entire people. Theramore was a military fortress with, as someone else mentioned, civilians aiding in armouring the Alliance.

You don't retaliate to a pawn being taken by going straight for the king.

02/01/2013 12:56 PMPosted by Zophor
Garrosh didn't give them time to get the civvies out. He could care less about civilians, all he cared about was the Alliance bringing their brightest and best to defend Theramore.

He may not have given them time to get civilians out intentionally, but since he decided to wait for the might of the Alliance to arrive, a ship full of civilians was able to get out of Theramore before it asploded.
Edited by Fylane on 2/1/2013 1:10 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
16160
02/01/2013 01:00 PMPosted by Valius
I don't need to tell you how wrong you are.


Why do ALL of your fights always end in, "No, you're wrong" ?

Seriously, almost every argument you make ends in, "No, you're wrong."
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
02/01/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Fylane
Theramore was a military target, it was a launching point for the Alliance in Mid-southern Kalimdor. Orgrimmar is a city, full of civilians, children and is the cultural hub of the Orcs.


Orgrimmar is a bigger military target than Theramore was. It's the hub of the Horde war machine. The arms and munitions and equipment the orcs use are made there. South of Org there's camps of parked siege engines and troops, supplies are stacked nearby and the port in Bladefist Bay is busy. All of that is centered in and around Orgrimmar.

The fact civilians live there too is irrelevant. Just as the fact there were civilians in Theramore. For the record, only one ship got out of Theramore and all it held was the children. There is no way that the they could have fit the tens of thousands of civilians in the one ship. If you are using a place as a military base in the middle of civilians, you'd be an idiot for not expecting it to be attacked. The presence of civilians should NEVER be a deterrent in taking out a military supply center, strong point, base or fortification. You take it out no matter what otherwise you are only going to get your own troops killed.
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90 Gnome Warlock
8985


No...she doesn't. It's fine for her to be angry. She has every right to be. Theramore was her home for years. She was responsible for it's people and their safety. Saying to have all that wiped out in an instant by the mana bomb was devastating to her and she has a right to seethe with righteous indignation.

Hell I want more characters like Jaina. People who realize that you can't make peace with everyone out there or that fighting may be the only valid answer. Right now the only way to end this war is to take out Garrosh(and possibly Sylvanas) as well as cripple the Horde's ability to make war. People like Anduin, don't realize that, and subsequently when they try to implement their own peaceful plans wind up paying for it in spades.

There is a time for talk and a time for fighting. This is a time to fight.


While I agree that disorginized hippees shouldn't run wars, Jaina isn't being rational with her anger. When she gets angry, she just flies off the handle and attacks any enemy without thinking of the consequences of her actions, just like Garrosh.


Play through the Alliance side of the Krasarang invasion quests til you speak to her in the Violet Hold. Jaina doesn't hate the Horde, nor the blood elves, but she makes the decisions that have to be made.
Dalaran was a place where the Horde could have easily gained access to Alliance cities, and information on Alliance troop movement. Keep in mind that Sylvanas is still sending forsaken to the Dalaran crater to attack her new nation's people and has been doing so for a while. Though it may not be as pertinent to this current situation it still shows a breakdown in the Horde's leadership that's been in place since Thrall was there.
Diplomacy has solved nothing so far. A show of force, not matter how brutal it seems can be just what's needed to bring people to the bargaining table either to talk or to surrender.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
15590
02/01/2013 01:05 PMPosted by Kynrind
Theramore was a military target, it was a launching point for the Alliance in Mid-southern Kalimdor. Orgrimmar is a city, full of civilians, children and is the cultural hub of the Orcs.


Orgrimmar is a bigger military target than Theramore was. It's the hub of the Horde war machine. The arms and munitions and equipment the orcs use are made there. South of Org there's camps of parked siege engines and troops, supplies are stacked nearby and the port in Bladefist Bay is busy. All of that is centered in and around Orgrimmar.

The fact civilians live there too is irrelevant. Just as the fact there were civilians in Theramore. For the record, only one ship got out of Theramore and all it held was the children. There is no way that the they could have fit the tens of thousands of civilians in the one ship. If you are using a place as a military base in the middle of civilians, you'd be an idiot for not expecting it to be attacked. The presence of civilians should NEVER be a deterrent in taking out a military supply center, strong point, base or fortification. You take it out no matter what otherwise you are only going to get your own troops killed.


Welp, I concede my arguement.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
02/01/2013 01:01 PMPosted by Fylane
And Orgrimmar is just as much a military target as Theramore was since it's the SEAT OF HORDE POWER ON THE PLANET. Civilians or no, if someone was to drop a nuke on your home and you survive somehow are you going to care about THEIR civilians if you have a chance at payback?


Orgrimamr is as much of a military target as Washington DC or Ottawa Ontario.

It's the cultural capital of an entire people. Theramore was a military fortress with, as someone else mentioned, civilians aiding in armouring the Alliance.

You don't retaliate to a pawn being taken by going straight for the king.


See my above post for this answer. Orgrimmar is a military target bigger than Theramore is. Actually, going for the king is a smart move. Those who start wars (such as world leaders) should be in the cross-hairs just as much if not more than the common soldier. Why should the leaders be untargetted? Hell, if I was running a war, the leaders would be one of my first priorities. I'd make sure a sniper team or six was after them as well as using missiles to take out the leaders homes, military HQs and other places they stay at. no sense in letting them stay safe while they send in soldiers to die for them.

02/01/2013 01:01 PMPosted by Fylane
Garrosh didn't give them time to get the civvies out. He could care less about civilians, all he cared about was the Alliance bringing their brightest and best to defend Theramore.

He may not have given them time to get civilians out intentionally, but since he decided to wait for the might of the Alliance to arrive, a ship full of civilians was able to get out of Theramore before it asploded.


He didn't care about the civilians. All he wanted was the biggest military presence there before he blew the place off the map.
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90 Gnome Warlock
8985
02/01/2013 01:00 PMPosted by Valius
No I do know how it works. YOU are ok with your own team firing on your own men. What Jaina was going to do WOULD be an atrocity. I don't need to tell you how wrong you are.


No I'm really not, but you apparently are so bogged down in this "lawful good overdrive" quagmire that you can't see the forest for the trees. Who is to say it's an atrocity? The people of the Alliance? We have shamen, priests, paladins, druids, monks, goblin jumper cables and teleportation magic. I guarantee you we could have gotten just about every soldier, sailor, and marine out of there if we needed to or wanted to, even a few orc civilians.
The reward would be a completely disorganized Horde.

Sylvanas would have no backup to continue her pushing into Gilneas, and Northern Lordaeron, allowing 7th Legion and the Bloodfangs to crush the Forsaken.

The Night Elves would be able to drive the Warsong out of Ashenvale, as well as possibly recapture Azshara.

Hell with Org gone, Varian could bring, Lor'themar, Vol'jin, and Baine to table and possibly forge out a reasonable treaty to end the war for good.

Not to mention the more domestic problems this would free up troops to solve, like Gnomeregan, the Defias, and the Dark Irons.
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90 Gnome Warlock
8985
Orgrimmar is a bigger military target than Theramore was. It's the hub of the Horde war machine. The arms and munitions and equipment the orcs use are made there. South of Org there's camps of parked siege engines and troops, supplies are stacked nearby and the port in Bladefist Bay is busy. All of that is centered in and around Orgrimmar.

The fact civilians live there too is irrelevant. Just as the fact there were civilians in Theramore. For the record, only one ship got out of Theramore and all it held was the children. There is no way that the they could have fit the tens of thousands of civilians in the one ship. If you are using a place as a military base in the middle of civilians, you'd be an idiot for not expecting it to be attacked. The presence of civilians should NEVER be a deterrent in taking out a military supply center, strong point, base or fortification. You take it out no matter what otherwise you are only going to get your own troops killed.


http://thatschurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/tumblr_maq77ecMHG1qejf6u.gif
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90 Human Paladin
17285
02/01/2013 12:54 PMPosted by Fylane
By that time, Jaina was the legitimately elected leader of the Kirin Tor. All citizens of Dalaran, blood elves included, owed her their allegiance. If she tells them to go to the Violet Hold (for whatever reason), then by law they are obligated to go to the Violet Hold. By refusing to obey their sovereign - or worse, taking up arms against her - they were guilty of treason against the kingdom. That's punishable by death.


Is Dalaran not run by a council of 6?

Not all Blood Elves helped with stealing the bell. She could have confronted Aethas first (he had no part in it) but no, she decided imprisonment to all.


The leader of the Council of Six can pull rank on the other five members, as we saw when Antonidas issued a stern ultimatum to Kel'Thuzad. Jaina wasn't necessarily overstepping her bounds when she imprisoned Aethas - she confronted him with suspicions of treason and his response was overly smug and wholly unconvincing.

While it's true that not all the blood elves were guilty, they're still obligated to obey their sovereign. If Jaina decided they should all be imprisoned until she could determine who was guilty, they should have gone along with it. Those who resisted arrest (and even tried attacking her) brought their fate upon themselves.

If a police officer shows up at your door, says you're a suspect in a major crime and puts you under arrest... you should probably cooperate and try to prove your innocence later. Trying to flee or kill him isn't likely to end well.

Orgrimamr is as much of a military target as Washington DC or Ottawa Ontario.

It's the cultural capital of an entire people. Theramore was a military fortress with, as someone else mentioned, civilians aiding in armouring the Alliance.


Theramore was the cultural capital of humanity on Kalimdor and housed the largest concentration of refugees from the fallen kingdom of Lordaeron. In Warcraft III it was presented as Orgrimmar's equal in size and significance, and for several years it was considered the capital of the Alliance.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/01/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Fylane
Theramore was a military target, it was a launching point for the Alliance in Mid-southern Kalimdor. Orgrimmar is a city, full of civilians, children and is the cultural hub of the Orcs.


Orgrimmar is a military target. It is a launching point for the Horde in northern and central Kalimdor. Theramore is a city, full of civilians, children, and is the cultural hub for the Alliance on Kalimdor.

It works in reverse bub.

02/01/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Fylane
Garrosh gave Theramore time to get the civilians out and the military in, Jaina was not about to do the same for Orgrimmar. She wanted to kill the children. She even said so.


Garrosh didn't give time for civilians to escape. The presence of civilians was irrelevent to him. What he wanted was to get the military IN.

If Theramore was a military target and not the same as Orgrimmar, why would Garrosh need to "give time" for civilians to leave?

02/01/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Fylane
What was her reasoning in Dalaran then? She was killing any Blood Elf that fought to stay in their home. Not all of them helped with Theramore, not all of them helped with the Divine Bell. It was maybe 4 Blood Elves total between both events.


Because the Sunreavers were aiding and abetting the Horde, and when Jaina attempted civil measures to stop that, they circumvented them and then attempted an insurrection.

02/01/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Fylane
But no, she decided any who wanted to stay and fight for their home died. Not freezing, and putting in jail or expelling, but killed.


Yeah. Because they raised weapons against the Kirin Tor. We call that "treason."

Aside from the fact that all of them - Or very nearly all of them - Were gone by the time the bomb was dropped.


Garrosh didn't know this. This is a plot point in the novel.

02/01/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Veloran
It's coming from Blizzard, actually.


That quote doesn't say that Orgrimmar isn't a military target.

The comparison still stands. If Theramore was a legitimate military target and hence nuking it was okay, then Jaina was 100% justified in doing the same thing to Orgrimmar.
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90 Gnome Warlock
8985
Vyrin, Theramore was funneling troops into the Barrens, Stonetalon, and Northwatch. It had a fully operational garrison, and dock. It was basically the main staging point for the entire Kalimdor offensive. Children and civilians be damned, if I was warchief I would have destroyed or taken it myself.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
9275
02/01/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Evilgenius
Hell with Org gone, Varian could bring, Lor'themar, Vol'jin, and Baine to table and possibly forge out a reasonable treaty to end the war for good.


Varian would have been killed along with the rest of the alliance fleet by Jaina.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
11150
No one has committed ANY War Crimes. It's the most overused phrase on the forums since last year when everyone thought a character they didn't like or didn't' agree with a choice said character made earned them the "Mary Sue" title.

There are no rules of engagement here. You can argue that the opposing faction has done something horrible or evil to your own, but no one's committed a war crime here.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
02/01/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Draug
There are no rules of engagement here. You can argue that the opposing faction has done something horrible or evil to your own, but no one's committed a war crime here


Somewhat this, but the Orcs have strictly forbidden the Forsaken from using the Plague and they keep doing it. That could count as a war crime. Wouldn't us fighting against cults be considered war crimes? They're trying to take over the world.
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Not to try and build a dam to stop the river of QQ, but shouldn't we wait to see what kind of even Blizzard considers a 'war crime' before we start complaining?
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90 Dwarf Warrior
16335
02/01/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Evilgenius
Vyrin, Theramore was funneling troops into the Barrens, Stonetalon, and Northwatch. It had a fully operational garrison, and dock. It was basically the main staging point for the entire Kalimdor offensive. Children and civilians be damned, if I was warchief I would have destroyed or taken it myself.
I don't think he's arguing that it's not a military target. He's arguing that you can't use the same logic to claim that Theramore is but Orgrimmar isn't.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
9275
02/01/2013 01:55 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
Vyrin, Theramore was funneling troops into the Barrens, Stonetalon, and Northwatch. It had a fully operational garrison, and dock. It was basically the main staging point for the entire Kalimdor offensive. Children and civilians be damned, if I was warchief I would have destroyed or taken it myself.
I don't think he's arguing that it's not a military target. He's arguing that you can't use the same logic to claim that Theramore is but Orgrimmar isn't.


But than Stormwind is also a valid military target, as is Ironforge.
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