So we are killing for War crimes?

Um, Orgrimmar is a military target... Garrosh made it into a Military horde and drafted all of-age orcs into the army. Not to say it doesn't also have civilians in it but it still is a military target. Of how you want to deal with it depends on if you want to be another Garrosh or not.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Vyrin, Theramore was funneling troops into the Barrens, Stonetalon, and Northwatch. It had a fully operational garrison, and dock. It was basically the main staging point for the entire Kalimdor offensive. Children and civilians be damned, if I was warchief I would have destroyed or taken it myself.


Swell. But if you're going to argue that Theramore was a legitimate target you can't turn around and claim that Orgrimmar isn't as well.
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90 Human Warlock
11835
Dresden was a military target too. There were 127 factories in the city, including ball bearings and optics (the famous Zeiss camera factory), there were weapons in the local armory and it was a telephone communications and railroad hub.

It was also practically defenseless (the AA had been moved to the eastern front) and unprepared. 25,000 to 50,000 civilians were burned alive.

It wasn't a war crime (technically). The Geneva Conventions did not (iirc, do not still) forbid the destruction of industrial centers located in residential areas. If destroying the city also terrifies the German populace and placated the Russians at Yalta, then you could say the RAF had a happy coincidence. That's what happens when you're up against ruthless mother!@#$ers.

Now... is there industry in Orgrimmar? There is! How nice. Then, yes:
Orgrimmar was and is as legitimate a target as Theramore.

Ah, except... it's full of Horde. We can't have bad things happen to our poor, little, horde npcs and characters, can we? Considering they're the edgy faction, they sure do spent a lot of time hiding behind the skirts of big mommy Blizzard.
Edited by Sardana on 2/1/2013 2:55 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8980
Dresden was a military target too. There were 127 factories in the city, including ball bearings and optics (the famous Zeiss camera factory), there were weapons in the local armory and it was a telephone communications and railroad hub.

It was also practically defenseless (the AA had been moved to the eastern front) and unprepared. 25,000 to 50,000 civilians were burned alive.

It wasn't a war crime (technically). The Geneva Conventions did not (iirc, do not still) forbid the destruction of industrial centers located in residential areas. If destroying the city also terrifies the German populace and placated the Russians at Yalta, then you could say the RAF had a happy coincidence. That's what happens when you're up against ruthless mother!@#$ers.

Now... is there industry in Orgrimmar? There is! How nice. Then, yes:
Orgrimmar was and is as legitimate a target as Theramore.

Ah, except... it's full of Horde. We can't have bad things happen to our poor, little, horde npcs and characters, can we? Considering they're the edgy faction, they sure do spent a lot of time hiding behind the skirts of big mommy Blizzard.


You realize that nobody really looks back on the bombings of Dresden as a positive thing, right?
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90 Pandaren Warrior
11150
02/01/2013 02:13 PMPosted by Vyrin
Swell. But if you're going to argue that Theramore was a legitimate target you can't turn around and claim that Orgrimmar isn't as well.


Of course they are legitimate targets. Theramore was blatantly helping the Alliance and funneling troops and supplies into Kalimdor, even if that fact gets glossed over in the book for some reason.

Orgimmar would be a legit target for the Alliance, it's home to the leader and army of it's enemy, why wouldn't they attack given the chance?

People tend to think of this war in 21st century terms when you really need to go back about a thousand years or so.
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90 Gnome Warlock
8985
02/01/2013 02:13 PMPosted by Vyrin
Vyrin, Theramore was funneling troops into the Barrens, Stonetalon, and Northwatch. It had a fully operational garrison, and dock. It was basically the main staging point for the entire Kalimdor offensive. Children and civilians be damned, if I was warchief I would have destroyed or taken it myself.


Swell. But if you're going to argue that Theramore was a legitimate target you can't turn around and claim that Orgrimmar isn't as well.


I'm not. Hell Orgrimmar should be a lake right now.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
11150
You realize that nobody really looks back on the bombings of Dresden as a positive thing, right?


Maybe not now, but at the time, it would have made perfect sense. Crippling an army is more than facing them on the battlefield, it's cutting supplies and supply lines.

Ah, except... it's full of Horde. We can't have bad things happen to our poor, little, horde npcs and characters, can we? Considering they're the edgy faction, they sure do spent a lot of time hiding behind the skirts of big mommy Blizzard


You were making good points till the pity party at the end. Yes, Theramore and Orgimmar, as far as the game concerned, are no where near the same level of importance. One is a major faction capital, the other is a quest hub, even if it was a really nice one.

If Stormwind had been left a crater and Orgimmar untouched, you'd have a better point.
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90 Goblin Warlock
7630
02/01/2013 12:44 PMPosted by Fylane
She wants the Horde crushed to the point that they will never be able to fight again.


And? Why is that an evil action? The two factions are engaged in total warfare, wanting to wipe them out when they're trying to wipe you off the map seems entirely reasonable.

02/01/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Fylane
But no, she decided any who wanted to stay and fight for their home died.


Yeah. That's kind of what happens when you violently resist arrest. Again, why is that unreasonable?

02/01/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Fylane
Theramore was a military target, it was a launching point for the Alliance in Mid-southern Kalimdor. Orgrimmar is a city, full of civilians, children and is the cultural hub of the Orcs.


Claiming that the literal heart of the Horde's military, industrial and political power isn't a valid military target seems completely asinine.

02/01/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Fylane
Jaina is bat-!@#$ crazy now, and the only thing that is going to stop her from being bat-%^-* crazy is death.


You have a pretty disturbing defintion of 'bat-!@#$ crazy'... doubly disturbing with your proposed 'solution'.
Edited by Leviathan on 2/1/2013 3:21 PM PST
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
You realize that nobody really looks back on the bombings of Dresden as a positive thing, right?


Positive? No. But necessary considering Dresden was a fascist stronghold and industrial center.
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90 Human Warlock
11835

People tend to think of this war in 21st century terms when you really need to go back about a thousand years or so.


If we went back "a thousand years or so" then cities would still end up like Jerusalem - depopulated by siege and sack. Except we won't see that either. Why would anyone expect this to be medieval fantasy when there's nothing medieval about it, except for the superficial use of the occasional plate armored footman?

You want this to be more period accurate?

If Mehmet II instead of Varian attacking Orgrimmar, then the orcish population of Orgrimmar would be raped and murdered wholesale and the city renamed and repopulated by Turks - sorry, humans. Durotar would be ethnically human for the next thousand years. Is that the kind of medieval warfare you want to see?

I know it would amuse ME, but as everyone who reads my posts knows, I'm nasty like that.


You realize that nobody really looks back on the bombings of Dresden as a positive thing, right?


You'd be surprised.
Luckily for me, my grandfathers fought in the Navy in the Pacific, so I don't have to imagine what their mindset would have been dropping fire bombs on a city that can't even shoot back.

Nonetheless, if those boys who leveled city after city got to go home with a clean and clear conscience, I'm a bit shocked Jaina can't. From here, it looks like speciesism on the part of the Devs.

Hell, the Horde has and WILL walk away from Theramore with a spring in their step and a conscience cleared by the divine mandate of the Devs ("don't worry, my darlings," Kosak coos to his beloved Horde, "You did no wrong! Theramore deserved it, and so did that nasty other faction. Snuggle up with mama and give us a kiss.") - the Alliance, on the other hand, is guilt tripped into throwing away any and every advantage while Metzen tells us through his hand puppet Varian to "think of the children!" As long as those children are orcs.
Edited by Sardana on 2/1/2013 3:31 PM PST
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90 Human Warlock
11835

If Stormwind had been left a crater and Orgimmar untouched, you'd have a better point.


You know Stormwind HAS a huge crater in it? Right? One that takes up 1/4th of the original city's size?

Coincidence, surely.

EDIT
You clearly don't like me pointing out how the Horde is untouchable in WoW and how the Devs coddle you. That's too bad. Maybe if the Devs actually pampered you less then I wouldn't be bringing it up. You know - reading this, reading other posts, even entering tthese threads - you know you're untouchable. That this little 'siege of Orgrimmar' won't actually inconvenience you, or even affect you or your faction. You know you'll be sitting pretty no matter what happens.

Why? Because you know, deep down, that Bliz will never do anything to you. The Horde is the faction for people who want to play The Favorite. You think you're the black sheep, but scratch that surface, and there's only Blizzard Blue.

/shrug

Suck it up like the Alliance has to suck it up. IMHO, a little ribbing online is a small price to pay.
Edited by Sardana on 2/1/2013 3:41 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Warrior
11150
02/01/2013 03:34 PMPosted by Sardana
You know Stormwind HAS a huge crater in it? Right? One that takes up 1/4th of the original city's size?


The one made by the Horde, right? Oh, wait, that was Deathwing. But there must be Horde fault in there somewhere.

02/01/2013 03:34 PMPosted by Sardana
Why? Because you know, deep down, that Bliz will never do anything to you. The Horde is the faction for people who want to play The Favorite. You think you're the black sheep, but scratch that surface, and there's only Blizzard Blue.


Oh please, I can still quite plainly remember back in Vanilla where the Alliance got all the perks, whether it was game polish or even completed quests right down to the location of most of the raids, Alliance got the love and Horde got the scraps. Why? Because Blizz knew that most folks would want to play the Alliance, and there were (and still are) right.

But still the Horde of vanilla and BC was my fav.

What I'm at a loss for is your accusation of coddling. Maybe you mean the map balance that occurred in Cata. Maybe it was the bait and switch we got with Garrosh when we were all but promised a better direction for him.

Sorry a dragon attacked your city, which is getting fixed soon, or you lost a quest hub, that you can still access with dragon magic, but it would be easier to take you more seriously if you didn't use so much hyperbole in your posts. Like I said before, until you got to that part, you had some decent points.
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90 Human Warlock
12795
02/01/2013 03:58 PMPosted by Draug
You know Stormwind HAS a huge crater in it? Right? One that takes up 1/4th of the original city's size?


The one made by the Horde, right? Oh, wait, that was Deathwing. But there must be Horde fault in there somewhere.

Why? Because you know, deep down, that Bliz will never do anything to you. The Horde is the faction for people who want to play The Favorite. You think you're the black sheep, but scratch that surface, and there's only Blizzard Blue.


Oh please, I can still quite plainly remember back in Vanilla where the Alliance got all the perks, whether it was game polish or even completed quests right down to the location of most of the raids, Alliance got the love and Horde got the scraps. Why? Because Blizz knew that most folks would want to play the Alliance, and there were (and still are) right.

But still the Horde of vanilla and BC was my fav.

What I'm at a loss for is your accusation of coddling. Maybe you mean the map balance that occurred in Cata. Maybe it was the bait and switch we got with Garrosh when we were all but promised a better direction for him.

Sorry a dragon attacked your city, which is getting fixed soon, or you lost a quest hub, that you can still access with dragon magic, but it would be easier to take you more seriously if you didn't use so much hyperbole in your posts. Like I said before, until you got to that part, you had some decent points.


/spits out drink

What? WHAT????

The only EPIC questline the Alliance got was the Grand Masquerade. Counter that to the fact that the Horde got a questline to kill Rend which led to them getting a buff similar to that if you kill Ony or Nef.

Also, yes Blizzard knew that more people would play Alliance...which is what led to them working their asses off to make the Horde more appealing.

You had the ongoing interlinked quests as Forsaken around the development of the Plague.

You had the orcs. trolls and Tauren working to take the BIGGEST leveling zone in the game...which was also Horde controlled...the Barrens.

You had quests as all Vanilla factions in Hillsbrad AND Ashenvale with you actively working against the Alliance.

And racials/class specific spells/faction specific classes? Horde dominated in all three with superior racials, superior class spells (only one worth a damn was dwarven Fear ward...and hardly anyone played dwarf back then). And then the eternal paladin vs shaman debate.

Which class had utility in all specs? Here's a hint, it wasn't the one wearing plate. Hell, in pvp you RAN when you saw a shaman with a 2hander, ask any vanilla veteran.

But all of that is pointless.

People say that Theramore was funneling troops into the Barrens? Take a trip around Orgrimmar. Just fly around for 5 minutes. See all those catapults and troops training? That's not just for show.
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02/01/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Sardana
It wasn't a war crime (technically). The Geneva Conventions did not (iirc, do not still) forbid the destruction of industrial centers located in residential areas.


You do realize that there is no Geneva Convention in WoW right?

The fact that anyone ever compares some of the situations in wow with real life situations is a falacious farce.

Theramore - Warcrime by Alliance standards
Theramore - Successfully destroyed Wartarget by Horde standards

It's as simple as that. The Alliance and Horde don't play by the same rules or bend the same rules, or break the same rules.

So for the sake of everyone's intelligence, just stop trying to compare wow and real life when it isn't even a plausible defense.
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90 Human Warlock
11000
02/01/2013 06:58 AMPosted by Kurze
Your topic accidentally a name.


I laughed so hard at this.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10720
Good thing I don't much of a flying flip about what the Horde thinks of itself, because as usual, it's half right, half wrong, and all stupid.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
15755
Dresden was a military target too. There were 127 factories in the city, including ball bearings and optics (the famous Zeiss camera factory), there were weapons in the local armory and it was a telephone communications and railroad hub.

It was also practically defenseless (the AA had been moved to the eastern front) and unprepared. 25,000 to 50,000 civilians were burned alive.

It wasn't a war crime (technically). The Geneva Conventions did not (iirc, do not still) forbid the destruction of industrial centers located in residential areas. If destroying the city also terrifies the German populace and placated the Russians at Yalta, then you could say the RAF had a happy coincidence. That's what happens when you're up against ruthless mother!@#$ers.

Now... is there industry in Orgrimmar? There is! How nice. Then, yes:
Orgrimmar was and is as legitimate a target as Theramore.
Ah, except... it's full of Horde. We can't have bad things happen to our poor, little, horde npcs and characters, can we? Considering they're the edgy faction, they sure do spent a lot of time hiding behind the skirts of big mommy Blizzard.


You realize that nobody really looks back on the bombings of Dresden as a positive thing, right?


I do. You gotta fry them !@#$s somehow.
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90 Human Death Knight
7475
There is so much wrong in this thread.

Ogrimmar *is* a military target, its the prime training center for the Horde and the center for thier leadership and logistics. They produce large quantities of war machines that are shipped out all over the globe (you even have to pull inspector duty for a series of demolishers before they are shipped to the Twilight Highlands in a quest)

If Jaina had gone through with the destruction of Org then the supply line would have been cut in half and Echo Isles and Blidgewater Port would be exposed to an Alliance assualt. And with the loss of their capital, leaders, and much of thier population, the Horde would be on its deathbed as an idealogy. Which is what the Alliance wants to destroy, the idea of the Horde. If the members of the Horde want to die with it then thats their business, Lok'Tar Ogar, but really the Alliance just want the "Horde" gone, not calling for mass genocide of its races.

Since there is no Geneva Convention or Rules of Engagement in this conflict, there is no such thing as a "war crime" there are only dishonorable tactics, and things that will piss off the nuetral parties.

Edit: Mass genocide meaning more than one genocide (Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins, Elves, Forsaken) yes calling a single genocide by any measure would be....wrong. Multiple genocides?
Edited by Anargyros on 2/1/2013 9:55 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
10720
The whole divide on Theramore versus Orgrimmar can be summed up in one word.

Hypocrisy.
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76 Draenei Monk
3875
02/01/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Kelisaria


The Alliance has not committed a single war crime in this war, with the sole exception of that mindblowingly dumb Goblin intro that was never mentioned again.


*cough* Jaina Proudmoore attempted genocide *cough*


Attempted does not mean she committed the crime. Again, state a War Crime the Alliance has committed.
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