5.2 Spirit Shell: Heroic modes only?

Hey everyone,

I've raided seriously in the past on multiple classes, but this expansion I've been very casual. So I'm hoping some more experienced healers can shed some light on something I've been wondering about.

Currently, SS benefits from mastery, making it a solid throughput cooldown even in things like 5-mans or LFR.

In 5.2, it does not, so the absorbs will be roughly equal to the heals that would have originally been cast (factoring in crit modifier and so on.)

Doesn't this mean the only situation I'd use SS is one in which the incoming damage would kill the target if not for an ablative buffer? Otherwise it doesn't especially matter if it's an absorb or not, so long as the person isn't going to die in that moment.

It seems to me that turning your heals into equivalent absorption bubbles could be very useful in heroic-mode raids, where you're creating a buffer for other healers and dealing with potentially lethal damage.

In the content I do, however, I don't feel like there's much of a reason to use SS after 5.2.

Thoughts?
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02/02/2013 09:20 AMPosted by Circe
In 5.2, it does not, so the absorbs will be roughly equal to the heals that would have originally been cast (factoring in crit modifier and so on.)


Either things are roughly equal, or they are modified. They can't be both. An SS heal will still be far greater than it's healing without it is.

02/02/2013 09:20 AMPosted by Circe
In the content I do, however, I don't feel like there's much of a reason to use SS after 5.2.


What will you do instead? How to you propose you will burst everyone back up before the next bit of damage that WILL kill them happens?
Edited by Morenn on 2/2/2013 9:31 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
You are incorrect. The Correct way to do Heroic modes is to Get some Ice Cream and sit there as your other healers do all the work. Thats how I would do it. (sarcasm)
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Either things are roughly equal, or they are modified. They can't be both. An SS heal will still be far greater than it's healing without it is.


I haven't tested it on the PTR, but my understanding is that since SS heals don't crit, they're increased by percentage equivalent to the gains you would see in a given sample in which the heals can crit.

So, modified in order to keep them roughly equal.

Obviously there's value in a 10% increase vs a 10% chance for a 100% increase, but not nearly as significant as the current mastery-based increase.
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What will you do instead? How to you propose you will burst everyone back up before the next bit of damage that WILL kill them happens?


Atonement, possibly PoH. As I said, in serious content I'm sure it will be an issue. My concern is that those priests who don't do much more than LFR or 5-mans will have no real use for it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Does it not still serve the same purpose, albeit in less magnitude? If you still pre-PW:S tanks and players, there must be some reason to use SS as well.

Sure, if the damage is inconsequential the potential of SS drops, but so does every single heal including the entire worth of even having that healer around. That's just the nature of healing. =(
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02/02/2013 09:42 AMPosted by Circe
Atonement, possibly PoH. As I said, in serious content I'm sure it will be an issue. My concern is that those priests who don't do much more than LFR or 5-mans will have no real use for it.


I have an issue with your entire premise. If Spirit Shell has a use now, it will have the same use after the change. Think about what you are saying "It is less awesome now so I just won't use it." when reality is unless it does the same as the actual healing spells (or less) it will *always* be more beneficial to use, than to not use. I don't do heroic modes, only normals, but I can guarantee that without a doubt in my mind, that if I were to forgo using SS for known burst there is absolutely no way I would be able to put out enough Atonement heals to assist in bursting people up without it putting enough pressure on my co-healer for him to want to rip his hair out.

How exactly do you think it is less useful going forward? It is still better than just casting the heals themselves. That will not change... at all.
Edited by Morenn on 2/2/2013 9:53 AM PST
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02/02/2013 09:49 AMPosted by Aurinaux
Does it not still serve the same purpose, albeit in less magnitude? If you still pre-PW:S tanks and players, there must be some reason to use SS as well.


Currently I only pre-shield for Rapture. If not for Rapture, I would just smite stuff 4ever.

Certainly I see your point, that in low-damage content, most throughput increases aren't necessary. I'm sure I can do 5-mans without ever using Archangel (although I love it >.>)

My concern is more that if SS is not actually a throughput increase (just a way of shifting the randomness of crit to a constant) then its value (pre-shielding) is irrelevant to a large swath of content.
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02/02/2013 09:52 AMPosted by Morenn
How exactly do you think it is less useful going forward? It is still better than just casting the heals themselves. That will not change... at all.


I think this is the point we're diverging on in my premise.

If SS causes your heals (as absorbs) to be larger than they otherwise would have been, I absolutely agree with you; nothing changes.

My understanding is that the new version of SS is designed -not- to be a throughput increase, in which case its only value is pre-shielding. And pre-shielding is only useful in lethal situations, or when buffering for a co-healer.
Edited by Circe on 2/2/2013 9:55 AM PST
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02/02/2013 09:52 AMPosted by Circe
My concern is more that if SS is not actually a throughput increase (just a way of shifting the randomness of crit to a constant) then its value (pre-shielding) is irrelevant to a large swath of content.


It IS a throughput increase. To not be a throughput increase it would absorb for the same amount as the heals themselves heal. It does not. It absorbs for more.

02/02/2013 09:54 AMPosted by Circe
If SS causes your heals (as absorbs) to be larger than they otherwise would have been, I absolutely agree with you; nothing changes.


That is EXACTLY what it does and is EXACTLY what it will continue to do, just less so.
Edited by Morenn on 2/2/2013 9:58 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I don't view SS absorbs in the same light as ordinary absorbs for all intents and purposes due to how it can be specialized as a counter to mechanics. I don't think you would argue that Barrier was trivial, right?

Isn't the main appeal of SS its utility even today, prenerf?
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That is EXACTLY what it does and is EXACTLY what it will continue to do, just less so.


So, let's say we have a heal that heals for 20000.

With SS, it absorbs 22000 (a 10% increase)

Without SS, is heals 20000 but 10% of the time it crits for 40000. (averaged out, also a 10% increase.)

You can look at this as a throughput increase, but it's really just curbing randomness. Which, again, I'm not saying that's useless. I'm just saying it's not an unequivocal throughput increase.

Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding the way the new SS is calculated. That would go a long way to assuaging my concern.

EDIT: to be clear, I believe there is also a coefficient to account for the DA lost on the theoretical crit. I'm just leaving it out for easy numbers.
Edited by Circe on 2/2/2013 10:04 AM PST
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I don't view SS absorbs in the same light as ordinary absorbs for all intents and purposes due to how it can be specialized as a counter to mechanics. I don't think you would argue that Barrier was trivial, right?

Isn't the main appeal of SS its utility even today, prenerf?


That's a good point. I hadn't really considered SS relative to a damage reduction ability. I do use it single-target before certain mechanics even in 5-mans.

Maybe I'm just sad that it won't be a more prominent part of the toolkit. I followed the hype in beta about a "new absorb for disc!" and was hoping for something more interesting than what we have today. :/
Edited by Circe on 2/2/2013 10:10 AM PST
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02/02/2013 10:02 AMPosted by Circe
EDIT: to be clear, I believe there is also a coefficient to account for the DA lost on the theoretical crit. I'm just leaving it out for easy numbers.


You can't really leave out part of the equation and expect the result to be anything even remotely resembling correct.

That said, actual-ish values from PTR:

Greater Heal: 72,000 - 144,000 crit + aegis
Prayer of Healing: 27,000 - 54,000 crit + aegis

SS Greater Heal: 88,940 - 177,880 crit (Inner Focus)
SS Prayer of Healing: 34,000 - 68,000 crit (Inner Focus)
Edited by Morenn on 2/2/2013 10:38 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
In theory, SS will not be a throughput increase over the expected heal + aegis of a "regular" heal after 5.2.

However, SS is still going to be a throughput increase in practise because it will eliminate or greatly reduce overhealing. You will still use it on cooldown during sustained aoe.
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02/02/2013 10:21 AMPosted by Amabella
In theory, SS will not be a throughput increase over the expected heal + aegis of a "regular" heal after 5.2.


How so, since the Aegis value is also factored (properly now) into Spirit Shell calculations.
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02/02/2013 10:18 AMPosted by Morenn
You can't really leave out part of the equation and expect the result to be anything even remotely resembling correct.


If it follows the same pattern of equivalency, sure you can.

Your numbers leave out DA, incidentally. (And the crit modifier meta, but that's probably fine to exclude for now.)

That said, it appears to be around a ~20% increase. Rough mental math suggests you'd need something around 15% crit chance (including DA) to get the same average increase.
Edited by Circe on 2/2/2013 10:28 AM PST
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02/02/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Circe
Your numbers leave out DA, incidentally. (And the crit modifier meta, but that's probably fine to exclude for now.)


Fair enough, that was my bad.

edit: The meta would affect Spirit Shell more than it would the heal as for the heal it is a chance to crit whereas it is a modifier under Spirit Shell.
Edited by Morenn on 2/2/2013 10:39 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
You get aegis on normal heals (when they crit) too?

In 5.2 the formula for SS is just (chance of non-crit)*(non-crit value) + (chance of crit)*(crit + aegis value).

If you were to cast infinity "normal" PoH's (with no procs or anything), add up their total healing + overhealing + aegis generated, and divide by the number of PoH casts, you would get exactly the size of 5.2 SS.
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