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So I was reading some tweets today and saw that GC said they weren't sure how to raise Rogue popularity, but they are going to try and improve the visuals.
TBH, visuals would not make a bit of difference to me. In fact, I think the game is already a bit too visual heavy and any melee who raids would agree with me.
I've been talking to people who have either played or tried to play Rogues and asked them what made them turn away from them, and the responses I've gotten where pretty much one of two things.
Either the game play was too slow (always waiting for energy), or they are just too squishy for questing and such when 2+ mobs are pulled.
Personally, I can agree to a point with the first one. The second not so much, yeah Rogues are a little more susceptible to damage but that's why we have the amount of control we have. The only aspect of questing I do have a problem with (since I play sub) is the fact that unless I focus on keeping targets stunned I can't use my primary combo point builder due to positional requirements.
It's been said by multiple people already and I feel I must echo the sentiment that Rogues right now just feel too maintenance heavy. If I had to pick a single CP Spender that takes the most fun away from the Rogue play style, it would be Slice and Dice. Forcing Rogues to rely so heavily on Auto-Attack, and in turn poison procs just takes so much fun out of the class.
The only way Slice and Dice can be removed is if either energy regen is redone so that we have a higher base regen with slower scaling from haste, or lower the energy costs of abilities so that they can be used more frequently.
I would also like to go into a little detail on Subtlety Rogues specifically since they are the least represented Class/Spec combo in the game for PvE.
Come 5.2, 20% of Subtlety Rogues damage is going to be reliant on keeping Rupture up. Marked for Death will help with this, but for Subtlety, Anticipation is still the clear winner simply due to the fact that we can not guarantee that the target is going to die before we must switch targets again. Also due to Honor Among Thieves pretty much granting a CP every 2-2.5 seconds not to mention Shadow Dance w/ Find Weakness greatly favoring the double 5cp Eviscerate especially now that Prep is going to be baseline once again thus giving us a slight increase to Find Weakness up-time.
Hemorrhage is a must for situations and encounters when we can not maintain the positional requirement for Backstab, but it is still a huge DPS loss and the gap needs to be a lot smaller. Also, the bleed applied by Hemorrhage is nothing more than another unnecessary maintenance for Subtlety Rogues. Without the Hemorrhage Bleed granting Sanguinary Veins it honestly seems pointless and is just barely enough damage to be a net DPS increase overall.
One other side note I would like to throw in. Energy Regen mechanics for Combat and Assassination are to spiky. They need to be smoothed out a bit.
Actually, the complete lack of visual for something like blade flurry did bother me on my rogue when I played it as an alt during DW.
Why is that visual so boring while monks get the way cooler storm, earth, and fire? Why does it look like a freaking paladin/priest ability?
Rogues are just..boring outside of pvp, shroud is funny though when it's used properly. The rotation is pretty boring still too (I expect mut to be slow, but why is combat and subt slow?)
You'd be surprised how a visual can affect the enjoyment of a class. Its a subtle thing, sure and the most visually stimulatin class in the game would be unplayed if its actually mechanics were borin as grass, but it is important.
It's not a fix all, but aesthetics are definitely a big deal. The lack of viscerality visually really compounds the lack of viscerality numerically and the mechanical blandness to make a sort of trifecta of not fun.
Actually really disappoints me how mechanically uninspired and unexotic the Monk class' gameplay feels, particularly as WW... but that's for another topic.
86 Night Elf Rogue
There's a problem here that's pretty evident just by the posts in this thread.
Flashiness does affect population. Because people who don't really care about the class will definitely be drawn into it with pretty visuals. And people who do care about it might stick around if they get to look sexy while slogging through it. Gotta admit, Spinning Crane Kick and Chain Lightning look boss.
But Rogues have had their own subdued look for a long time, and honestly it fits them. Why the hell would someone who's job it is to sneak around unnoticed set off fireworks when he gives someone a switchblade enema? The part of visuals that kept Rogues attractive were fast animations, because they were always doing or swinging something, and big numbers because you crit those finishers all the time.
I have to agree with Decimate as to why I stopped playing a Rogue. I love them, I have quite a few that are hovering around 85 now. The problem I had with going any further, though, is that they feel like too much work for not enough oomph. A good example is the current backstab for Subtlety - You have a positioning requirement, but it barely feels (at least at my level) like it hits harder than Hemmorage. Without the +30% backstab crit it's often just a boring splat rather than a fun button to press.
Finishers as they are really grinds my gears, but by now I'd say it might be one of the reasons some people still play Rogues. Lots of finishers with few builders is pretty boring and maintenancy in a boss fight, but gives us a lot of control and flexibility.
Edited by Calhoun on 2/3/2013 4:37 PM PST
I've had the same reaction with my monk. Its why I'm still levelin her despite the fact that everythin I've seen at end game with monks doesnt seem all that appealin. There's just somethin insanely fun about tossin kegs, smashin kegs, and those flashy kicks even if the mechanics themselves aren't overly engagin.
Monk mechanics coming in (and to me still) were actually quite boring and bland. However, visually they were appealing to the eye with the amount of movement and flashy kicks that came with them.
Basically, this tells me that the visual aspect helped draw you to the class. However, it also tells me that you feel as though you were disappointed overall and are likely not going to stay with the class unless changes (which are likely coming) are made.
Yes, visuals will help get Rogues some attention as far as people trying them out. Yet the fact still remains that unless the play style is improved, the likelihood of anyone switch to a Rogue as their Main to thus balance out the representation from a PvE standpoint is not going to happen.
Basically this as well. You have to be extremely careful how you adjust the visuals otherwise you risk destroying the very essence of the class. Key abilities that could definitely use a visual overhaul would be Eviscerate for one, also Envenom. Anything more than that and Rogues become sneaky little clowns.
The first two problems are linked. Which is why most Rogues site those two reasons and it is no coincidence.
Rogues are energy starved keeping SnD, Recuperate, and Feint up while trying to find energy for a Kidney Shot or Eviscerate, or for the CP generators with such high energy cost and yet are low yellow hitting attacks. Stacking haste on gear alleviates the problem, but at the end of the day Rogues still feel slower than other melee DPS classes. Ramp up time is way too high.
Because Rogues are energy starved now, their survivabilty is really bad. Gouge at 45 energy is too punishing, and using a talent like Dirty Tricks makes a huge difference in damage output, but also being able to use Feint (requires energy).
Recuperate heal is so tiny for the amount of combo points/energy used that it is not worth even using.
Kidney Shot is one of the last stuns in the game that has three requirements (Combo Points, cool down and energy cost). Cheap Shot has only two requirements (stealth and energy or with shadow focus just stealth).
I agree with the energy bar slowness being a huge factor to making the rogue leveling game painful. Ending a fight with 2-4 combo points and really only having the option to slice/dice and sprint to the next mob or recuperate even if healthy is pretty lame. They do better on long fights but that isn't the leveling experience at all.
That said, a way to make poisons more flashy would be nice, it's a huge mechanic that blows compared to some other weapon buffs in the game. Sadly I think the way to make rogue damage "feel" more roguish is with hit reactions on enemies/players that they don't really have a lot of in the game.
P.S. They could really expand what a rogue means for the gear as well, the Tier gear looks fine but it's all the same theme....Differentiation of the specs or being more loose in what makes a rogue would be helpful. Why not a swashbuckler's set, or a brigand set, maybe even a bruiser/toughs set. Enough with fantasy-ninja.
Edited by Grumbley on 2/4/2013 7:05 AM PST
Combat doesn't even play like a Swashbuckler. Combat can not go toe-to-toe with (low dodge, low armor, low parry) anything so looking like a Swashbuckler doesn't make it any better.
Visuals isn't the problem becaue anyone that has leveled a Rogue knows if one more than one mob looks at you funny you are toast without Vanish.
I hear what your saying but if you could safely just pull one mob at a time wouldn't that solve your issue with fighting more than one. Imagine a rogue killing one opponent at a time but at twice the speed of other classes. Farming is the same but you have a weakness (multiple character pulls) which just means they need to space out enough (ie. not all) of the quest mobs so that you can play to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses.
Also the swashbuckling reference was that I feel rogue armor is pretty humdrum with little variation in theme.
Lastly, I do think visuals would help, they don't have to be flashy as much as they have to make you feel like a rogue or even better like a -insert spec- type of rogue.
Ignoring everything but the first few lines of your post, a ton of rogues have asked for updated visuals on their abilities. This is something that will appeal to a lot of people who play.
You can speak for yourself all you want, and ask for more, but don't say that this isn't good, just say that this isn't good enough (it's not), because it's exactly what peopled asked for.
I'd like to edit saying that I read the rest of your post, and yes, you're spot on. I know many rogues have said these same things and you're effectively just repeating them, but it's been too little for too long for rogues. Absurd PvP power for 1 season doesn't make up for 4 expansions of very little change for the only pure melee. Pretty sure nearly each individual melee spec received more attention than the entire rogue class this expansion.
Edited by Sajepanda on 2/4/2013 12:04 PM PST
What I find most odd is the underlaying pattern of specs at work.
Most of the time, when I see rogues complain about the leveling process or things not being fun: they're always combat / sub.
Attempting to level a rogue now; about 74 Assassin.
Energy is plentiful, damage is great, survivability is more then enough.
I don't understand what the problem is.
Then I tried sub... finisher juggling sucks. Bad.
Combat? You feel really soft for being the least stealthy of the three specs.
So advice if I could offer it: Assassination is the best.
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