Where do you think it went wrong in Cata/MOP?

100 Night Elf Priest
17460
Oh yes, I completely forgot about the worgen. A prime example of doing something the lore doesn't support just because players are asking for it, and then having to take a sledgehammer to the story to try and cram the square peg into the round hole. The result is that a dark, fearsome, mysterious, threatening, scary enemy became a group of angry druids, effectively losing all of those qualities.

I'm not just saying I wish they'd done the worgen better; I'm saying they never should have made playable worgen at all.


They're not even that angry... Most of the time, they're about as vicious as any other human. All worgen have seen their homeland get taken over by the Forsaken, but they are all as zen as Varian about it.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
13395
02/03/2013 11:43 PMPosted by Resileaf
They're not even that angry... Most of the time, they're about as vicious as any other human. All worgen have seen their homeland get taken over by the Forsaken, but they are all as zen as Varian about it.


The status of Gilneas is another odd point actually. At the end of the Worgen starting area it's decided that the kingdom is lost, but then it's swiftly reclaimed off-screen in the Horde-only Silverpine questline. This is further reinforced by having the Battle for Gilneas battleground take place on the coastline rather then just about anywhere inland.

Then the Rogue Legendary questline comes along and abruptly implies that the Forsaken largely control Gilneas and that Creed's followers are the exception....

Overall I think that just plays into Cataclysm's main problem, Blizzard overexerted themselves and created way too many story arcs for them to properly resolve them all in a timely fashion. To make matters worse they changed gears on some pretty significant points mid-development.

In no place is this more clear then the Lost Isles, where Thrall is inexplicably sailing under Horde colors with an Orcish crew despite having already set aside his mantle as Warchief. Then it ended by implying Garrosh had something to do with the Alliance trying to capture him, a point which has yet to be reexamined in any form.
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/03/2013 11:20 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
I'm not just saying I wish they'd done the worgen better; I'm saying they never should have made playable worgen at all.


Good for you. I happen to be on the complete opposite spectrum and wish they'd done the race better justice.

Certainly a far more compelling race idea than High Elves, for sure.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/04/2013 03:02 AMPosted by Grimtale
I'm not just saying I wish they'd done the worgen better; I'm saying they never should have made playable worgen at all.


Good for you. I happen to be on the complete opposite spectrum and wish they'd done the race better justice.

Certainly a far more compelling race idea than High Elves, for sure.


I agree. The Worgen did have heaps of potential that could've been capitalised on if more time was put into their questing experience. Silverpine was one they definitely should've been involved in, and Hillsbrad and Arathi are zones they could've easily had a good influence in.
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
I, overall, had absolutely no problem with the druidic background. It still kept the Worgen curse as something that no one should tamper with, and the Night Elves that DID practice it were incredibly threatening and dark. (One of them even swearing vengeance against Malfurion.)

If I had any real problem it's how Goldrinn was handled. He's kind of bland and the only thing that sets him apart from other Ancients is that he's the demigod equivalent of a rebellious teenager. They should have done so much more than that. Make him more shadowy, more loose cannon, more like Wolverine and the mythological gods of war and death. The Ancients should treat him like something to be feared and glad he's on their side, rather than an angry child.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
Yeah, that's exactly what's needed. One god completely overshadowing the others. Actually, it'd be quite fitting since he's voiced by Metzen and inevitable all of Metzen's characters are more important than anyone.
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/04/2013 04:19 AMPosted by Cbredbeard
Yeah, that's exactly what's needed. One god completely overshadowing the others. Actually, it'd be quite fitting since he's voiced by Metzen and inevitable all of Metzen's characters are more important than anyone.


...what?

No seriously, I don't think I said that anywhere in my post. Maybe I should have said 'wary' rather than 'fear'.
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28 Pandaren Priest
5000
02/03/2013 07:17 PMPosted by Fylane
The only thing wrong about MoP is the faction war. It's boring and should have ended with WC3.
'

Agree. And it's ultimately unsatisfying, as there can't ever be a winner. Otherwise, I love the lore behind MoP. The Pandaren are my favourite race since the Blood Elves.

Cata: For me, Deathwing's motivation merely being explained as "he's insane" was disappointing after the really rich, interesting story behind Wrath. I really didn't care about Deathwing and had little interest in his story.
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Basically it went because they went to do too much, and then when they realized it, did way too little, cut out a few KEY plot points that would have been imperative to a good story, and made a "World Character" seem more important and put him in places he didn't need to be.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
02/04/2013 05:01 AMPosted by Grimtale
Yeah, that's exactly what's needed. One god completely overshadowing the others. Actually, it'd be quite fitting since he's voiced by Metzen and inevitable all of Metzen's characters are more important than anyone.


...what?

No seriously, I don't think I said that anywhere in my post. Maybe I should have said 'wary' rather than 'fear'.


"Treat him like something to be feared and they're glad he's on their side" That implies they're weaker than he is.
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90 Human Death Knight
7475
The stories that they tried to give to many of the new zones were (for the Alliance) just pop-culture references shoehorned into the game. They weren't amusing, they were stupid and they made the Alliance look incredibly stupid.

The enemies were boring "World Destroyers" that had no motivation beyond destruction for the sake of it. Even the Old God's are more interesting because they actually plot and scheme and try to drive the factions insane and have them tear themselves apart from the inside. Had Blizzard gone in THAT direction more with the Twilight Cult and the Black Bishops betrayal there could have been some good quest chains.

Instead we got Uber-Goku-Go'El fighting Perfect form Deathwing with the Time Travelling MacGuffin, CSI:Westfall, and Demonic Orc loving villagers in Redridge. And Plot Holes. PLOT HOLES EVERYWHERE!!! FALLING FROM THE SKYYYYYYY!!!

So all in all, it was just terrible.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
17245
My problem with Worgen is mostly their animations all suck and that every time a jerk takes my node it's a bloody Worgen.

I really do love Gilneas, the zone is beautiful, yet dark. I'm really irritated that the city and the zone are left empty. The fact that it's so close to UC is a copout to me. You can easily fly to UC from IF in two minutes if you wanted to cause trouble, people still fly to SW and Org to cause trouble, despite their locations. Fact of the matter is, with flight, it makes the game smaller, and more accessible to people who decide to be trolls.

The Gilneans deserved more than an introduction to their zone and then have it ripped away from them, and get a lousy tree to replace Gilneas. I would love to see Gilneas reclaimed, and repopulated for player use. Have the NPCs be both non-Worgen Gilneans (because not all were infected) and then the Worgen ones.
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100 Human Mage
18730
In no place is this more clear then the Lost Isles, where Thrall is inexplicably sailing under Horde colors with an Orcish crew despite having already set aside his mantle as Warchief. Then it ended by implying Garrosh had something to do with the Alliance trying to capture him, a point which has yet to be reexamined in any form.


To be fair on the former, it's not as if Thrall could've called up the Alliance and asked if he could borrow one of their ships. And it was probably personal preference/reassurance that kept him from going with a Steamweedle vessel.

The latter, though, I'll absolutely agree; that was nothing more than a giant cliffhanger that never lead anywhere in Cata's lifetime (if at all... Still haven't got a Horde toon to do Dominance Offensive quests on). Hell, Cata had at least one other glaring unresolved cliffhanger: Magatha Grimtotem. By the end of Thousand Needles, we just essentially handed her the keys to unleash armageddon on half a zone, she tells us she'll treat us as KOS the next time we meet her, and... That's it. No further mentions of her at all in Cata. No telling us who (if anyone) she's teamed up with. Hell, Dragon Soul would've been the perfect opportunity to bring her story to a close by, say, turning her into the penultimate boss, instead of some Hammer commander we'd never heard of before or since.

And, yes, I do understand that Blizzard does have to leave in some initially unresolved plots. The problem is that they frequently seem to be left to simmer until we're well past the point where they were relevant, then suddenly reappear and expect us to remember just why the hell we're even fighting them in the first place.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
17485
02/04/2013 12:16 PMPosted by Marriama
Hell, Cata had at least one other glaring unresolved cliffhanger: Magatha Grimtotem. By the end of Thousand Needles, we just essentially handed her the keys to unleash armageddon on half a zone, she tells us she'll treat us as KOS the next time we meet her, and... That's it. No further mentions of her at all in Cata. No telling us who (if anyone) she's teamed up with. Hell, Dragon Soul would've been the perfect opportunity to bring her story to a close by, say, turning her into the penultimate boss, instead of some Hammer commander we'd never heard of before or since.
Except that it would make no sense for Magatha to join the Twilight's Hammer. She's always been out for herself, merely using others for her own ends, and joining the crazy end-of-the-world group would seem rather contrary to that. Making her a boss in Dragon Soul would have had no value except as a name drop and a means to waste her story.

I've no doubt we'll see her again, but it's going to be at a time when the focus can be on her, and not as someone else's stooge.
Edited by Vegdrasil on 2/4/2013 12:44 PM PST
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My biggest problem was that there was a lot of wasted potential. They had the means to make it incredible, yet they didn't. They kept making mistakes that anyone else would have seen a mile away.

Do Metzen and Fargo's demands go without peer review? It certainly seems so.

They tried to make the Twilight's Hammer a 'rah rah end of da world' when the Cult of the Damned already did that; and they did it much better. The difference is that the Lich King (and Cult of the Damned by extension) was 10x more compelling and established.

The elementals sucked. They just sucked.

The Cataclysm barely did any damage. The Barrens and the chasm separating the Badlands from Loch Modan is the only real, noticeable, visceral damage. Why wasn't Orgrimmar split open? Why was the park, the least used area torched but the rest of Stormwind was squeaky clean?

Deathwing was a bad villian. Thrall was a bad world hero. Malfurion was a bad world hero.

The problem with the faction war came in its presentation. In theory, the night elves fight back just fine and recoup their losses; this is never shown, at all. Astrannar is eternally firebombed. There is no epic raid to reclaim Silverwind Refuge. Nothing.

Plus the contradictions. Northwatch and Theramore soldiers in Durotar, yet Jaina is as clueless as ever. Blackrock Orcs invading Northshire valley, yet we're supposed to connect them to the Horde. Fighting the Horde viciously in Ashenvale, yet buddying up with the Tauren in 1k needles.

It was just a mess.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
My biggest problem was that there was a lot of wasted potential. They had the means to make it incredible, yet they didn't. They kept making mistakes that anyone else would have seen a mile away.

Do Metzen and Fargo's demands go without peer review? It certainly seems so.

They tried to make the Twilight's Hammer a 'rah rah end of da world' when the Cult of the Damned already did that; and they did it much better. The difference is that the Lich King (and Cult of the Damned by extension) was 10x more compelling and established.

The elementals sucked. They just sucked.

The Cataclysm barely did any damage. The Barrens and the chasm separating the Badlands from Loch Modan is the only real, noticeable, visceral damage. Why wasn't Orgrimmar split open? Why was the park, the least used area torched but the rest of Stormwind was squeaky clean?

Deathwing was a bad villian. Thrall was a bad world hero. Malfurion was a bad world hero.

The problem with the faction war came in its presentation. In theory, the night elves fight back just fine and recoup their losses; this is never shown, at all. Astrannar is eternally firebombed. There is no epic raid to reclaim Silverwind Refuge. Nothing.

Plus the contradictions. Northwatch and Theramore soldiers in Durotar, yet Jaina is as clueless as ever. Blackrock Orcs invading Northshire valley, yet we're supposed to connect them to the Horde. Fighting the Horde viciously in Ashenvale, yet buddying up with the Tauren in 1k needles.

It was just a mess.


/thread
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90 Night Elf Mage
8710
Garrosh being Bipolar. If you want to make him a villain he needs redeeming qualities so that he is more than a 2-d lolevil bad guy like deathwing was. He needs to have clear motives and goals that make sense. I also don't like how this horde rebellion is going to play out. Garrosh had a lot of potential and they squandered it.

As for Cataclysm you can keep your lame faction war if you want, but there should really have been 2 end bosses. The horde would deal with the elemental lords with Ragnaros being the end boss for them, and the alliance would deal with Deathwing. Then the two factions would work together and defeat N'zoth.
Edited by Azurara on 2/4/2013 1:53 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
The Twilight's Hammer could've been so much more but they failed. I'm not even sure if they can recover as an organization.

As for MoP, it's far better than Cata, but it still suffers the same flaws.

Mogu are my favorite despite or because of their cartoon villainry. But they are a self-destructing people and I'm not sure if they'll be able to survive this expansion.

Mantid are awesome. But their story ended way too soon. The swarm was more destructive than anyone could've imagined. We killed both their newborn and their leadership. The Klaxxi never got any closure dealing with the Empress.

The Sha have contradicting origins. They also failed to serve as a reason why war on Pandaria is bad. We've killed all 6, where even with their warnings, once the factions leave the natives should be able to control them.

The Trolls and Yangoil are being killed too much. Either there's nothing redeeming about them or they refuse to see how wrong they are for attacking people.
Edited by Gethrian on 2/4/2013 1:54 PM PST
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My biggest problem was that there was a lot of wasted potential. They had the means to make it incredible, yet they didn't. They kept making mistakes that anyone else would have seen a mile away.

Do Metzen and Fargo's demands go without peer review? It certainly seems so.

They tried to make the Twilight's Hammer a 'rah rah end of da world' when the Cult of the Damned already did that; and they did it much better. The difference is that the Lich King (and Cult of the Damned by extension) was 10x more compelling and established.

The elementals sucked. They just sucked.

The Cataclysm barely did any damage. The Barrens and the chasm separating the Badlands from Loch Modan is the only real, noticeable, visceral damage. Why wasn't Orgrimmar split open? Why was the park, the least used area torched but the rest of Stormwind was squeaky clean?

Deathwing was a bad villian. Thrall was a bad world hero. Malfurion was a bad world hero.

The problem with the faction war came in its presentation. In theory, the night elves fight back just fine and recoup their losses; this is never shown, at all. Astrannar is eternally firebombed. There is no epic raid to reclaim Silverwind Refuge. Nothing.

Plus the contradictions. Northwatch and Theramore soldiers in Durotar, yet Jaina is as clueless as ever. Blackrock Orcs invading Northshire valley, yet we're supposed to connect them to the Horde. Fighting the Horde viciously in Ashenvale, yet buddying up with the Tauren in 1k needles.

It was just a mess.


Yep, basically going to call /thread on this right here.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
02/04/2013 01:49 PMPosted by Azurara
Garrosh being Bipolar. If you want to make him a villain he needs redeeming qualities so that he is more than a 2-d lolevil bad guy like deathwing was. He needs to have clear motives and goals that make sense. I also don't like how this horde rebellion is going to play out. Garrosh had a lot of potential and they squandered it.


He does actually. They sucked at presenting them but if you did Landfall Horde side you get a better idea of his character.

He's trying to save the Orcs from starvation and heat. He wants them to be as strong as the Dark Horde was. At least like Grom was. Problem is he looks down on non-Orc races and for some reason the other races refuse to see the benefits of a conquered Kalimdor.
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