Where do you think it went wrong in Cata/MOP?

100 Human Warlock
13855
02/04/2013 11:36 AMPosted by Cbredbeard


...what?

No seriously, I don't think I said that anywhere in my post. Maybe I should have said 'wary' rather than 'fear'.


"Treat him like something to be feared and they're glad he's on their side" That implies they're weaker than he is.


I Kenpachi significantly stronger than the other leaders in Bleach? No he isn't?

Are they nonetheless glad that he's on their side and not against them? Yes definetly.

He doesn't need to be stronger than them, just that they're aware that taking him down would be difficult and draining.

Wolverine is another example. For as popular as he is and as dark and badass as he's written to come across, there're plenty mutants stronger than him, that DON'T take him down simply because of the effort it would require.

That is how Gol'Drinn could've been written. He's the ancient that goes his own way and won't answer to anyone. He knows you'll probably kick his !@#, but by the time you're done you won't be able ot do anything else for a long time.
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
"Treat him like something to be feared and they're glad he's on their side" That implies they're weaker than he is.


No it doesn't. It implies that the Ancients see something represented about Goldrinn that they are wary of, and that he is fearsome enough to strengthen that wariness. As such, they'd be glad he was part of their family, but is treated like a black sheep all the same, rather than being another agent of the Burning Legion.

02/04/2013 02:33 PMPosted by Zophor
That is how Gol'Drinn could've been written. He's the ancient that goes his own way and won't answer to anyone. He knows you'll probably kick his !@#, but by the time you're done you won't be able ot do anything else for a long time.


Exactly.
Edited by Grimtale on 2/4/2013 5:05 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
02/04/2013 02:33 PMPosted by Zophor
I Kenpachi significantly stronger than the other leaders in Bleach? No he isn't?


...You aren't up to date on Bleach, are you?
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100 Night Elf Warrior
7215
I thought Cata's storyline was amazing and was delighted to suddenly see so much of the old Vanilla lore coming back to the game with new developments and with old places having new stories put to them.

The issue people have with Alliance vs Horde and who is winning is just stupid I think.
And Thrall being over used is also a criticism I frankly find stupid as well. The only problem I had was how little Malfurion's role was, he should have side by side with Thrall in everything. They should have been working together openly.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/05/2013 02:54 AMPosted by Elrith
The issue people have with Alliance vs Horde and who is winning is just stupid I think.


Has anyone complained so far about how much one side won?

From what I can tell it's the effort that goes into the two factions that causes complaints, not whatever one got the most victories.
Edited by Gandred on 2/5/2013 3:09 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9165


The issue people have with Alliance vs Horde and who is winning is just stupid I think.


I know that people trot this out as some kind of an attack, and I know that people have been trying to assert some sort of argumentative purity by saying "but we weren't saying that we should be any more effective than a comic-relief villain!", but I don't see why it's stupid, and you haven't really explained it.

Why is winning once in a while such an unreasonable demand? Why is it bad that the Alliance should be able to hold its own rather than being a pity object for the Horde rebellion in what is really the Horde's story? What exactly is interesting about one side just absolutely curbstomping another?

I can see why Horde players and Horde fans would love to see the Alliance as a bunch of cardboard cutouts to knock down, but that's not the case. We have two playable factions, both filled with duespaying customers, and it's perfectly understandable that people are upset about being torn down in the way that the Alliance - particularly the Night Elves - has been. Yes, winning once in a while would not be a bad thing, and while you're at it, Blizzard, put in some work on BOTH factions, rather than giving one side a multifaceted story involving multiple characters and personalities while you centralize the other around one "perfect" man.
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02/05/2013 03:08 AMPosted by Gandred
The issue people have with Alliance vs Horde and who is winning is just stupid I think.


Has anyone complained so far about how much one side won?

From what I can tell it's the effort that goes into the two factions that causes complaints, not whatever one got the most victories.


Where have you been for the past two years?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9165
Edit: I'll add this. If you simply can't stomach the removal of a Team-Rocket win/loss record, at least give the perception of effectiveness. Let's look at how this worked in the Hobbit. Now, I read the book some time ago and have largely forgotten it, but in the movie, we never really see an instance of the dwarves ever winning.

In fact, they get it handed to them almost from start to finish. They get captured by trolls who they weren't even harming during their big "we're here to save the day" moment and have to get saved by Gandalf. Gandalf and the elves save them from the first orc-pack. Then Gandalf saves them again from the goblins... and they heroically run away. Immediately after, Gandalf and the eagles have to save them once more, right after good old Thorin gets beaten like a schmuck, and has to be - yep - saved by freaking Bilbo.

Does anyone really think about that when they're leaving the theater though? That the Dwarves appear to be failing at every turn and won't really have a snowball's chance in defeating Smaug at the rate things are going? Not really. These instances, though they are each defeats, are treated like victories, and the losses aren't abrupt, arbitrary, and blunt - the way they are in Warcraft - they're understandable. They endured trials and came out the better for it. But do you get that feeling when Thassarian tells you "whelp, we lost", or when you're staring at the smoldering crater where Thal'darah used to be? Not really. You're just being told that you failed. You're bad and you should feel bad. Maybe you should roll Horde instead - but then again, you're probably not good enough to be Horde.

This has got to turn around in some way, and no, it won't happen by making Varian into Superman. That creates more problems, and the Alliance doesn't need to be lectured by Taran Zhu about how it's their fault for responding to an enemy whose stated goal is world domination and possibly extermination. We need to be proud of our faction, and our respective races - not being put in the position for making excuses about them.

Edit: Trials... not trails...
Edited by Kyalin on 2/5/2013 5:02 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
The issue people have with Alliance vs Horde and who is winning is just stupid I think.


Has anyone complained so far about how much one side won?

From what I can tell it's the effort that goes into the two factions that causes complaints, not whatever one got the most victories.


For me, it's more the Alliance is really just being set up to forgive and forget everything that's been done to it. The Alliance loses entire cities at the hands of the Horde, and their response is to enact a policy of containment? The Alliance doesn't act like a people that have been pushed very hard. They don't even act like what they're doing is strictly necessary, leaving one to wonder why they don't just surrender to the Horde in the first place.
Edited by Cbredbeard on 2/5/2013 4:55 PM PST
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/05/2013 04:43 PMPosted by Searik
Where have you been for the past two years?


Well, my experience is that, for the most part, the Alliance does have it's fair share of wins, but Blizzard just handles them crummily.

02/05/2013 04:54 PMPosted by Cbredbeard
For me, it's more the Alliance is really just being set up to forgive and forget everything that's been done to it.


Yeah, and that's kinda the same deal. The Alliance will get a win at the end of the expansion, but it will be a "We're all friends now, time to go home" win and everyone just walks off into the sunset. Which is very unsatisfying.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8330
02/03/2013 07:38 PMPosted by Grimtale
Worgen, unfortunately, weren't extended that same courtesy. Instead of serving the role as the dark "Forsaken"-like race of the Alliance, they instead turned their curse into a blessing, made their patron deity influence a Stormwind human king, and transformed their characterization from gruff, patriotic Gilneans into furry Night Elves that love nature and just want to hunt in the woods. What's more, they seemingly fell into obscurity, and the only use their kingdom has seen is just to be part of a legendary questline meaning it has no real end to it that's feasible.


I really wish the Worgen had become vengeful Alliance shock troops, on the front lines doing the missions that others were either physically incapable of or perhaps morally incapable of. It would be nice to have a faction that maybe Varian WRynn turns a blind eye to because he likes the results. They could have made the Alliance far mroe complex but instead were given short shrift.

That's my two cents, They could have gone a thousand different ways all more interesting than what happened.

And saying this I love MoP, and didn't hate Cata although it is still my least favourite xpac. Kind of how I like Coke more than Pepsi but still like Pepsi.
Edited by Sofa on 2/5/2013 9:41 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Warrior
7215


The issue people have with Alliance vs Horde and who is winning is just stupid I think.


I know that people trot this out as some kind of an attack, and I know that people have been trying to assert some sort of argumentative purity by saying "but we weren't saying that we should be any more effective than a comic-relief villain!", but I don't see why it's stupid, and you haven't really explained it.

Why is winning once in a while such an unreasonable demand? Why is it bad that the Alliance should be able to hold its own rather than being a pity object for the Horde rebellion in what is really the Horde's story? What exactly is interesting about one side just absolutely curbstomping another?

I can see why Horde players and Horde fans would love to see the Alliance as a bunch of cardboard cutouts to knock down, but that's not the case. We have two playable factions, both filled with duespaying customers, and it's perfectly understandable that people are upset about being torn down in the way that the Alliance - particularly the Night Elves - has been. Yes, winning once in a while would not be a bad thing, and while you're at it, Blizzard, put in some work on BOTH factions, rather than giving one side a multifaceted story involving multiple characters and personalities while you centralize the other around one "perfect" man.


Bear with me, I am medicated at the moment for reasons that are not fun or recreational, so my thinking is a bit slippery. Firstly, I must address the notion that paying dues entitles you to benefiting or being inconvenienced through events that exist solely in the story line of the game outside of the basic game play experience, and I think that issue is a distraction we should just ignore at this point, there is always someone out there who favors a specific race or character over the other, and to try and please them just because they pay to play Warcraft should have absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the lore and story line in this game. Feel free to return to that topic if you feel it really is relevant.

I've personally seen the issue continually boiled down to nothing more than score keeping too many times to count, all the while as they ignore the events in WOW prior to CATA as if things were balanced in some artificial memory of fairness and neutrality on Blizzard's part once upon a time. All the while ignoring the context of the victories or defeats only concerned with who has won or lost what.

They forget for years how so many Horde players complained about how much more effort they perceived went into polishing the Night Elf and other Alliance capitols and starting zones as compared to those of the Horde. They complained about the aesthetic attractions of the visual designs them self, missing the point of what each faction represents. They complained about the major lore behind each patch being tied into Alliance heroes and their races for so long compared to those of the other.

But for what it's worth, I feel what you say is worth examination and I don't mean to downplay that or suggest that I've only seen score keeping on this superficial of a level as a basis for faction bias complaints, I do not ignore how much more emotionally jarring and devastating the losses were at first glance for the Alliance over the Horde's as of Cata's events when you look at it purely though military and territorial losses and victories as the major indication of that imbalance.

I see this this perceived imbalance in the lore concerning the Alliance and it's defeats creating the perception that Blizzard is unfairly and intentionally putting one faction through unnecessarily harsh hardships, akin to some devious and childish equivalence to a child burning ants with a magnifying lens in the sunlight just because they can do so without fear of reprisal. Just because it's their game and they can do what they want. At least this is how I often see it presented.

I feel this is a harsh and unfair criticism for people who truly DO have a lot of love and passion for each side that I feel is unfairly dismissed, twisted, distorted and spun into such a petty portrayal of the situation. Corpsegrinder and Samwise's butt rocker "football rivalry" attitudes brought into the context and environment of a fantasy role playing game convention didn't help.

I think this harsh criticism is just unfair to Blizzard's story team and it does a disservice to the art of storytelling in the first place, because unfairness and tragic loss is necessary in a good story I feel. If it was due to nothing more than the biased people being given the driver's wheel, it would have merit, but I feel that's just a knee jerk reaction to people who are both overly sensitive and cannot handle loss or who are just fanatically attached to one specific race and who are automatically prone to assuming the worst concerning their story treatment.

I personally relished and savored my initial return to Auberdine to find a place which held so much meaning for me, demonlished. All the while the pride I felt guarding the borders of Ashenvale was being trampled on by Orcish boots as my ancient forests burned. And I loved it, as a neutral observer, for how it inspired me and made the story I'd grown complacent with for several years alive once more. I also loved it for the feeling of pride I had for the Kaldorei and the inspiration it gave me to get out there and do my part to have a role in the situation.l

To risk hyperbole, I think it's a sin,... an unnatural creative abomination,....to claim that these kinds of dramatic and powerfully emotional defeats should be in some way balanced procedurally to satisfy the fans who have truly follow this game through the eyes of their favored faction, I feel it would come off as stilted and contrived ultimately to balance these tragedies.

And to avoid these kinds of controversial shake ups in the lore at all comes off as timid storytell and threatens stagnation in the story in my opinion. And I've frequently seen plenty of people I've gotten the impression from that they feel these events should either never happen or that they should follow some kind of 1 for 1 balance. I suspect this objection and this outrage over imbalance in a storyline is born of a very real projection of their own opinions toward the other faction or races or characters that they fear lives in Blizzard's decisions, or from a very inflated attachment to any one race in the game Blizzard's developers simply do not share in intensity.

In the end, I think people need to keep in mind that the faction war is a fun and harmless workplace rivalry for Blizzard's team, and the accusations I see of company favoritism depress me when I see how just much passion and creativity and effort that Blizzard puts into this game's story line only to be accused of these petty things.

To address the objections I feel are at the heart of your post:

---Why is winning once in a while such an unreasonable demand?

It's not an unreasonable demand. But WOW's story takes a long time to move. Blizzard's tunnel vision and the rate at which they advance the story is inconsistent in it's momentum, and it's as slow as molasses in the winter to get somewhere interesting at times when at other times it changes in the blink of an eye. This idea that the Alliance is never winning is false and I think it was born of the events of Cataclysm only. I feel it's also born of a reluctance to accept the victories of the neutral heroes of our world and their deeds as in any way tied into the factions they came from. When a hero goes neutral, the faction loyalists seem to brand them as selfish or traitors. I find that unreasonable and often just a chance to focus and inject previously held qualms with those characters.


---Why is it bad that the Alliance should be able to hold its own rather than being a pity object for the Horde rebellion in what is really the Horde's story?

I don't think it really is the Horde's story, which is why it is NOT bad.

The story for the Cataclysm is about shaking up stagnant foundations we take for granted in the story line.

You ask why is it bad that the Alliance should be able to hold it's own? Well I would ask you why is it bad that the Alliance should not be able to constantly hold it's own and to be used as an object of pity in some manner when it is tied into a story that transcends both factions, which I feel it is?

Why is it bad to feel loss and defeat once in a while, sometimes even overwhelmingly more so than only once and a while? What is wrong with an era of ever building bleakness and hopelessness in a story if it's working towards something?

One must remember the Horde is much newer in it's current incarnation than the Alliance, it required more attention to be brought into it's own force as a truly global power on par with the Alliance in it's strength and size. Which brings me to your next question, and why I would posit that that this is not just the Horde's story, and why it is bad that the Alliance should once again be able to hold it's own in the face of cosmic danger.

--- What exactly is interesting about one side just absolutely curbstomping another?

I don't think they have curbstomped the other completely, but as a reply to that I would ask what is interesting about perpetually fair outcomes regardless of context? Because avoiding unfairness for the sake of not being unfair can easily lead to artificially contrived developments in a story. I think many of the defeats for the Alliance were trade offs with just enough of an edge for the Horde to bring them up to par with the Alliance as a truly global power while also using these events as an opportunity to show the aggressive shift in the character and philosophy of the Horde, foreshadowing the darker times ahead we were warned of.

And more importantly, mirrored in that reflection for the Horde's own character development, what unfairness for the Alliance in their "curb stomping" was actually there I feel in order to shake up long held assumptions over the reliability of the Alliance as a permanent source of noble justice, order, and stability that so many of it's fans see exemplified within the Gold and Blue. That sense of Alliance stability needed to be challenged. Challenging that assumed stability of the Alliance presented a crisis of identity for the faction and it's heroes.

It is that challenged reliability and stability of the Alliance which mirrors the same challenge to the identity of the Horde and what it has stood for under the spiritual guidance and noble leadership of Thrall. It then follows, that you are wrong to say the Alliance was subjected to defeat and humilation only to further the story of the Horde, when the Alliance benefited just as much regarding overall development in their own character and theme. It is only the superficial preoccupation with one's development concerning the growth of their power while the other's development was concerning the loss of their established power.

I think the Alliance has been due for this kind of tragedy. Despite the defeats and losses the Alliance endured in WC1 and WC2 and WC3, the brunt of tragedy endured by both Horde and Alliance species has still favored the Alliance and left their stability intact, along with their territorial holdings for the most part, while the Horde was left a traveling army of vagabonds and mercenaries seeking a home of their own, drawing to them new members who were also seen as outcasts or underdogs. Granted, the Horde were the aggressors which led to the shattering of their clans and the losses of the Alliance, but it is, what is is, and fairness should not trump interesting plot development.

A shake up was necessary and seemed a fun way to take the story after so many years of the status quo. The Horde needed to be given an increased threat to pose towards the Alliance in that they needed to come into their own as an appropriate global super power rather than a rag tag horde of nomads and outcasts united by codes of feudalistic honor and a Darwinian respect for strength. But what remains to be seen now is if they can be that global power while not being an aggressive and warlike Horde as we see under Garrosh.

I think in the end, what Metzen said to us at Blizzcon boils all of this down rather well and people are just impatient at the speed of development as well as with the imprecise and sometimes ham-fisted approach to realizing that vision Metzen outlined . Dark times are coming, dark times are ahead, but dark times are necessary as a vacuum which gives rise to the greatest of heroes.

We are still seeing these dark times play out, and you must, I urge you as a respected member of this community, divorce your penchant for one race or another in particular, as I feel it is clouding your judgment on this issue.

While the Alliance has taken humiliations and losses and had their pride wounded in light of some of these grand defeats, the Horde has had it's ethics and it's values of honor and loyalty compromised and perverted and stepped on in ways one could equivocate morally with the territorial and martial losses of the Alliance.

Granted, not 1 for 1, but in a fairly steady equivalence.

For one thing, in this community I think a major issue with people objecting to that equivocation as being valid is that they never felt the Horde had any ethical strengths or values concerning honor or loyalty with a authenticity and consistency that could compare to the stability and enduring strength that the Alliance was known for.

Ultimately I feel Blizzard's plan to take both Alliance and Horde together into a time of dark loss has worked, and it's just caused those preoccupied with the idea of unfair faction bias to have much food for thought while worrying those without faith in Blizzard that they can pull this off.

I think this bleak era in the story is meant to give rise to a time of great and noble heroes on coming forth on both Horde and Alliance, with great villains as well on both factions, all tied toward the moment in the tapestry of Warcraft when the greatest threat we've faced yet rises forth and demands these petty land wars are put to a stop.

These newly empowered heroes will put aside their earthly and political concerns for resources and grudges, and these newly born villains of the Factions will find a welcome home for their abilities to be put to optimal use, and all the squabbles over Ashenvale, Pandaria, and Northrend will seem as pale memories, as the Battle for Mount Hyjal will become a time looked back on as a petty skirmish in the face of this malevolence.
Edited by Elrith on 2/6/2013 11:15 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9165
If I wasn't restricted to ten minutes to draft this post, I might make a detailed argument like the one above this one, but regrettably, I can't.

One other issue with "oh, this is a tragic story and it's somehow better" is that, as was mentioned, our defeats tend not to mean anything. Darkshore was the closest it came to negating this, but more often than not, you're not supposed to feel anything other than "congratulations, you failed, now get off to this other zone so you can fail some more." There's no memorable moments, nothing to give you even a hint that things are going to get better, and a dreaded feeling (which reflects the reality) that this is final. Nothing about what just happened is going to change. You're not going to come back and take it back. You're not ever going to be able to fight back. We're going to focus on this swelled-up punching bag that you really don't care about.

The other matter is that there is an effort disparity, even in MOP. In Cata it was simply glaring, but in MOP it's getting overshadowed by already rock-bottom expectations being satisfied about getting something. It's still key to note that while the Horde is getting a complex story involving more than just one race, the developers are trying to reduce their workload by making Varian the Alliance, and the Alliance Varian. Already they've endeavored to make Tyrande look so worthless that she's irrelevant - and have largely succeeded. Have no fear though! You other lesser races are next if you don't keep in line!

We are still getting a lower quality product, and at best being put into a bait and switch. (Which manifests in many forms - "I know we promised these Night Elves, but we're going to give you these 'better' ones instead!" "We don't have good Alliance lore anymore. It's out of stock, but you can have this 'better' Horde lore!")
Edited by Kyalin on 2/7/2013 7:49 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Thanks for calling me out Sardana. -_- Don't call me out. Period. You don't see me calling out Kyalin "SHE'S A BABY NIGHT ELF WHO NEEDS TO BE CUDDLED BY MALFURION SO SHE CAN BE QUIET."

No...Don't attack me. I haven't even bothered debated much Alliance Horde politics often. I'm tired of it and I don't feel like debating much if I'm going to be called out cause Elrith is on the same side as I am but with a bit more passion.

Btw Elrith nice post.
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Sardana. That was awesome. I genuinely hope the devs are reading.

/clap
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/07/2013 04:44 AMPosted by Sardana
People are unhappy for a good reason.


So much fury and passion...

I wish there was something I could do to help. :(
Edited by Grimtale on 2/7/2013 9:57 AM PST
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90 Troll Rogue
9870
Much like the battle with Arthas, the impending doom did not feel impending enough.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
02/07/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Grimtale
People are unhappy for a good reason.


So much fury and passion...

I wish there was something I could do to help. :(


Don't bother. Even long posts can have irrationality. Considering how she called me out on a thread I DID NOT even attend at all.
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