Where do you think it went wrong in Cata/MOP?

100 Draenei Paladin
12505
02/08/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Lorthuron
Blizzard does give a !@#$ Ayrand. Stop lying.


What gives you this impression?
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Monk
0
Deathwing not being his Second War scheming self, the Aspects becoming mortal , and worgen not questing in Silverpine.
To be totally honest with you guys that's it. Those are the only problems I had with Cata.

As for MoP, the same old tired faction war that should have ended in WC3.


Add to the list

No alliance leader did anything of consequence.
There was no ingame mention of what the Council of 3 Hammers was about, how it was formed, or why the dark irons were around
There was no ingame mention of any of the happenings of "Wolfheart". We didn't get to play with the worgen up to the official alliance introduction, didn't uncover Maiev as a sinister highbourne killing conspiritor, and didn't live the return of Jarod Shadowsong
On that note of Elves, we also had a lot of disjointed ashenvale goings on.

The alliance lost so much ground and gained virtually nothing (didn't take stonard), and was massacred on several fronts.

To top it all off, we had to swallow our prides as the alliance and work with Troll leader Vol'jin and "conveniently not horde but totally horde" Thrall.

You don't speak for me.

Those are problems you have, not problems I have. Don't add them to my list.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Warrior
7215
Man that last post I made needs an editor badly. I was medicated and rambling, sorry.

Essentially, all I think that's going on is a crisis of identity for both factions that is playing out for the Battle of Mount Hyjal: the Sequel.

The Horde is having it's new found honor compromised by the temptation of a return to their warlike past, and the Alliance is having it's strength as a pillar and power of authority in the world compromised.

I think it's wrong to think the Alliance is just losing to give the Horde fodder for their own story growth. Stuff needed to be shaken up for both of them, and now it's in the middle of happening.
Reply Quote
100 Human Warlock
14105
Cata: 1. No real Alliance story. This was lost because while the Horde gained new zones, which allowed Devs and programmers to just press the Delete button and start over (Azshara, Hillsbrad). This couldn't happen with Alliance zones because they gained nothing new so you saw some new stuff (Blackrock Orcs attacking Northshire) and then old stuff (those kids trying to run away and get married).

2. Pop-culture references becoming stories. Again, the need to "get it finished" left us with basically nothing good after a certain point. You can even see where the line between good and bad is in Uldum. First third of the zone is interesting cat creatures, last 2 thirds is Indiana Jones rip offs.

3. Deathwing and Green Jeebus. Thrall was a good character until he became a messiah for the entire world (why do Humans want/need an Orc to save them?). And Deathwing was about as boring of a villain as you can get. What happened to the dude who shrewdly manipulated every Human king in the world?

MoP: Ok so far. But if the Alliance doesn't get mad at some point I'm gonna scream. I'm not talking insane-detonate-everything mad. Jaina's reaction against the Sunreavers went from one extreme to the other so fast I think she may have emotional whiplash. I'm talking rightous anger, the sort that makes you want to protect your people and get them some justice.


I agree on the Deathwing part. His voice acting was also horrible. Blizzard has kind of done this thing where the main villian to all things good is hur ur dem old gods. To do this they have kind of made a joke out of everything else they made as villians. Deathwing, The Burning legion, The Shadow council, the old horde remenents. Its really depressing that they have thrown their own orginal work under the rug for something that is so obviously an H.P. Lovecraft knock off. I really hope they correct this in the future because as intreasting as the Old gods are they shouldn't be the main threat to Azeroth that should stay with the Burning legion.

As For no real Alliance story I slightly agree on the premise that WoW tottaly missed an opertunity to have Tyranda ride in like a boss into Ashenvale and kick some orcs !@#. She hasn't had a solid bad @$$ moment for a moment and she really needs it. OTher than that the rest of it just seems to all be QQing because Alliance is loosing the war in Cata.

Pop culture references: LOL screw you that was funny and you knew it!


You can't lose a war when apparently your leadership has no idea that a war is going on. When I played my Horde toon in Cata I knew that it was on.

I was being shipped around from one battlezone to the next (with the exception of Uldum) sticking it to the mean old Alliance who were oppressing the poor defenseless Horde.

While on my Alliance toon I went from one pop culture reference to the other while in between dealing with everything affecting the Alliance but the Horde who no one apparently knew was attacking...again with the exception of SoS, and to a degree, Ashenvale. But even Ashenvale left you with a did I really accomplish anything feeling, since you weren't really DOING anything.

And then to top it off we're basically told in ToW that the Alliance wasn't taking the war seriously. Hell, with the dialogue from Jaina it seems that the Alliance was treating everything that happened in Cata as mere attempts at provocation in order to give reason behind Garrosh blowing up Theramore.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
02/08/2013 08:47 PMPosted by Elrith
The Horde is having it's new found honor compromised by the temptation of a return to their warlike past, and the Alliance is having it's strength as a pillar and power of authority in the world compromised.


Honor per the Horde;

Do whaterver the Warchief tells you to do
Fight for the Horde
Die gloriously in battle
Never say sorry for anything to anyone (except maybe the Warchief)
Maybe kinda sorta don't kill children
Uphold tradition, especially if made up right there on the spot even if it means going against previously established tradition (Thrall and Aggra's "wedding" and Saurfang absolutely postively needing his son's body there and then instead of waiting for it to be delievered to him)
Settle disputes with your leaders through ritual combat unless you think you might lose. Then all bets are off up to and including civil war while locked in mortal combat with a very determined and relentless enemy (good thing that doesn't describe the Alliance)
"Lok'tar Ogar"

Now where exactly in any of that has Garrosh compromised anything? Or maybe it's that he hasn't burned enough inscense to placate "the spirits", which are even less well defined than the Horde concept of honor?

I think it's wrong to think the Alliance is just losing to give the Horde fodder for their own story growth. Stuff needed to be shaken up for both of them, and now it's in the middle of happening.


That is what the Alliance is. A foil to the Horde. Everything points to that. The Alliance is not even a factor in the mind's of the Horde, except maybe Garrosh who actually aknowledges that it's an obstacle.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Hunter
10935
Man that last post I made needs an editor badly. I was medicated and rambling, sorry.

Essentially, all I think that's going on is a crisis of identity for both factions that is playing out for the Battle of Mount Hyjal: the Sequel.

The Horde is having it's new found honor compromised by the temptation of a return to their warlike past, and the Alliance is having it's strength as a pillar and power of authority in the world compromised.

I think it's wrong to think the Alliance is just losing to give the Horde fodder for their own story growth. Stuff needed to be shaken up for both of them, and now it's in the middle of happening.


For myself, I don't think that any concerns I have about the Alliance story have to do with losing per se. My concerns stem from two things: a) How any losses are shown - my poster child for this is Andorhal. I am fine with the Alliance losing but it was so poorly presented that it left a really bad taste in my mouth; and b) I feel like the Alliance is constantly put in the position of reacting to what the Horde does. The Alliance is never the one (at least in game) initiating the action and forcing the Horde to react. It always feels to me like the Alliance plays second fiddle to the Horde's story. Even the impending Siege of Ogrimmar - which I guess is supposed to be a big Alliance fist pumping moment seems like it has the potential for the Alliance just being a component of a Horde story arc. I could be wrong and I acknowledge that we don't know anything yet, but past history in the game leads me to be concerned that there really won't be an Alliance story arc to all of this, just Alliance assistance in completing a Horde story arc.
Reply Quote
100 Human Warrior
12320
This was from another post i made. I state all the problems i had with Cata, and whats going wrong with MoP so far, all from an Alliance perspective, but not to the point of raging fanboi.

TL;DR, Ever since Wrath, any alliance race that is not human, has either been ignored almost all together in lore, or has gotten their lore destroyed. This was supposed to change in MoP, for all races of both factions, but as of 5.2, Alliance has once again gotten the short end.

I'll start off and say what I know a Horde-lore junkie is going to be saying and yes, the Horde did get the short end of the stick in Vanilla, in terms of total amount of zones, quests, and overall feel of the lore. However, lore in Vanilla was almost a complete joke. 99% of quest involves the same thing with different NPC's, and were almost never engaging. There are a few obvious exceptions, but even then, these few quests were usually available to both factions.

In Burning Crusade this was fixed. Though the lore then was anything from good, it was relatively stable and even on both ends. Alliance had a lot of heroes from WC2 that appear, while Horde gets the chance to see the orcs come home (not to mention that very well done quest chain with emo-Garrosh). Even the two new races both got their time to shine, and were put into the spotlight for much of the expansion (some may argue Belves got more, but all in all it's close enough to even to not complain about).

Then Wrath came a long. It was honestly as if everyone forgot about the non Orc/Human races when they set foot on Northrend. Dwarves should have gotten a huge amount of spotlight in Storm Peaks (the reunion was good), but it was all left to one quest chain. Forsaken should have gotten even more than the Dwarves, but it's as if Blizzard assumed the Battle for the Undercity was enough. This was the moment Alliance story started to slip, and Horde story started to rise.

Cataclysm....Not going to say much about this, aside from the fact it was an expansion of empty promises. What happened to the Night Elves becoming more bold thanks to Malfurion? What happened to the turmoil that we were showed that is going on in the Dwarven kingdoms? What happened to the Gnomes attempting to retake Gnomer? What happened to the cool new, dark race?

Now here we are, 6 months into MoP, and here is what the Alliance has gotten so far.
Humans: For the most part, their development has been good, opening the playerbase up to a lot of grey characters such as Rogers and Jaina. But, where are my trials? We were promised an epic, expansion long quest that has us grow to respect and follow Varian. Yet we get one scenario, where he does nothing save for announcing to Tyrande what he should do. Great Trials.
Night Elves: Where to start, they are a complete joke now. When Devs are constantly reminded about this, to the point that they start making silly comments about it, then you know something is wrong. When did this savage yet noble warrior race suddenly become pansies? In WC3, Orcs were getting owned by just the Night Elves. Now, after Cata, the Orcs are somehow managing to take Ashenvale, against THE ALLIANCE. How are the Night Elves losing a battle on their own battlefield? Why was Tyrande in Pandaria? And better yet, why is a 10k year veteran suddenly acting like a child? Given Tyrande is very reckless, but not to the point where she can't see an obvious trap.
Dwarves: Council has made no progress. Magni's present state is still a question mark. The Explorer's League is in Pandaria, but compared to the amount of spotlight The Reliquary is getting, this KNOWN TO BE BETTER organization is left in the dust.
Gnomes: An engineer from Gnomer is on Pandaria. That is all.
Worgen: The Alliances most physically dominating race is still underused on the Battlefield, not to mention Greymane is the only named Worgen to appear, and he says what, one line in one quest?
Draenei: Reason I made the tread. No Development at all in Wrath. Got one quest in Cataclysm that had Velen actually do something (even if that something was appearing). But Oh, don't worry, because Varian has said at the end of the 5.1 questline that Velen is coming! NOPE!! Anduin is healed by Mistweavers.

The Horde has TWO races that have gotten the 'short end' so far, the Goblins and Forsaken. However, it's been confirmed Sylvanas, and thus the Forsaken, are going to be playing a big role later on. And Goblins are the most common Horde Race aside from the Orcs, so you can't really count.

So what the, Blizzard? I just spent a quick 20m to show everything you guys have promised, and yet repeatedly failed to deliver on. Is the Alliance (notice, not humans) actually going to see development? You would think that, in an expansion where the Horde is going through a major revolution and all the races are undoubetly involved, yet was advertised as the expansion where the Alliance get's to fight back, that you know, the Alliance would actually do some fighting, instead of waiting for the Horde to start every fight.
Reply Quote
02/08/2013 08:37 PMPosted by Dreignei
Those are problems you have, not problems I have. Don't add them to my list.


Don't feel so important as to think I would speak for you.

Conveniently your list coincided with some of my list. Don't flatter yourself otherwise.
Reply Quote
02/09/2013 04:35 AMPosted by Zophor
While on my Alliance toon I went from one pop culture reference to the other while in between dealing with everything affecting the Alliance but the Horde who no one apparently knew was attacking.


This is what agitated me.

A good starting point is at the Human starting zones.

1. You start your character and you are fighting orcs. FANTASTIC!! Jump right in and fight the horde... er wait... blackrocks aren't part of the horde?

2. Elwynn forest - With the removal of the word "Defias" and the general amiguation of "Common Thieves" the zone didn't change. Elwynn still under the exact same problems as before.

3. Westfall - YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! A CSI - Miami reference gone horribly wrong, and the Defias are back.

4. Redridge - See #1, but also add god awful Rambo Reference. Did John J Keeshan actually get accused of murdering Orc babies?

5. Duskwood - Nope, not even in the War yet. Got some Worgen-esque lore here though.

6. Stranglethorn part 1&2 - Nope, keep walking

This list can keep going on in order, but I think the first real combat zone against the horde for humans is SoS - And while we technically won the zone, it isn't reflected in game, as it is still a useable hub for the horde.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Warlock
13195
Apparently you missed my point, Grimtale. Something that is unique is something that hasn't been done before. That is a different occurrence from the norm. That is a departure from the expected.

Worgen are werewolves that aren't always feral. That's it. There is nothing unique about that. Just like there is nothing unique about having orcs that aren't constantly hitting things with their axes. They both take very basic, common premises in tabletop games -- orcs usually being restricted to Evil alignments in classic D&D -- and then add a small twist to them. That's the extent of Blizzard's foray into territory of the unique. And the Forsaken follow the same exact trend. They take an established 'race' (template)-- the undead -- and then make it so they're not bloodthirsty lunatics. That's it.

Putting typically ebil races in a more sympathetic light isn't original. It's been done. Fiction in general has been doing it for centuries; classic high fantasy has been doing it pretty reliably for the past two decades or so. More or less contemporaneous to WoW's launch we get the Mistborn trilogy, which begins with the premise of "what if the bad guy won?". And if you really want to get pedantic about it, Garrosh actually reads like a less compelling and less developed Lord Ruler.

What you're arguing is that WoW deconstructs a lot of tropes (which is intself a trope, but let's not get into that). This is true. But this doesn't make WoW's portrayal of "your garden variety orcs, but with a twist!" unique. It just makes it a deconstructed trope. This "let's deconstruct all our tropes" thing was a major theme throughout the 2000's (running more or less simultaneous with the grimdark theme). I mean, even Forgotten Realms of all things managed to reinvent itself around the time Wrath launched. That's how far-reaching the deconstructor fleets roamed in the previous decade. The fact that WoW got some of that by proxy is hardly surprising. What would have been surprising is if WoW didn't.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Monk
0
02/09/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Seebach
Those are problems you have, not problems I have. Don't add them to my list.


Don't feel so important as to think I would speak for you.

Conveniently your list coincided with some of my list. Don't flatter yourself otherwise.

You said, and I quote, "add to the list." You were speaking for me.
Reply Quote

You said, and I quote, "add to the list." You were speaking for me.


Don't feel so important as to think I would speak for you.

Conveniently your list coincided with some of my list. Don't flatter yourself otherwise.
Reply Quote
94 Goblin Warlock
9210
The Horde is having it's new found honor compromised by the temptation of a return to their warlike past, and the Alliance is having it's strength as a pillar and power of authority in the world compromised.

Talk about equivalency, hah.

I think it's wrong to think the Alliance is just losing to give the Horde fodder for their own story growth.

That's sort of what you just described though.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Warlock
10775
02/08/2013 08:47 PMPosted by Elrith
I think it's wrong to think the Alliance is just losing to give the Horde fodder for their own story growth. Stuff needed to be shaken up for both of them, and now it's in the middle of happening.


the alliance has been consistantly winning for 2 expantions. if you actualy read what the quest text say then you see the alliance has been kicking butt left and right.

the whole issue has always been that people arent reading, just looking and since most alliance victories and wins are not phased people assume they lost.

there is also a problem with people having preset notions of what an alliance win would be that the game can never live up too. so anything that isnt that notion of a win is instantly a loss in the player's mind, regardless of what happens in lore.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Rogue
10305
02/09/2013 06:24 PMPosted by Juibloc
I think it's wrong to think the Alliance is just losing to give the Horde fodder for their own story growth. Stuff needed to be shaken up for both of them, and now it's in the middle of happening.


the alliance has been consistantly winning for 2 expantions. if you actualy read what the quest text say then you see the alliance has been kicking butt left and right.

the whole issue has always been that people arent reading, just looking and since most alliance victories and wins are not phased people assume they lost.

there is also a problem with people having preset notions of what an alliance win would be that the game can never live up too. so anything that isnt that notion of a win is instantly a loss in the player's mind, regardless of what happens in lore.


Oh goodie... it's the "you're not imagining your wins hard enough" argument.

Alright, I'll say this again. The word of one NPC cannot be taken as objective truth, especially given that ninety-nine times out of a hundred, the interpreted "win" is wishful thinking, rather than a report of a fact.

"Blizzard didn't phase it right" is not an argument. Not until these wins are actually confirmed.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Warlock
10775
02/09/2013 06:27 PMPosted by Kyalin


the alliance has been consistantly winning for 2 expantions. if you actualy read what the quest text say then you see the alliance has been kicking butt left and right.

the whole issue has always been that people arent reading, just looking and since most alliance victories and wins are not phased people assume they lost.

there is also a problem with people having preset notions of what an alliance win would be that the game can never live up too. so anything that isnt that notion of a win is instantly a loss in the player's mind, regardless of what happens in lore.


Oh goodie... it's the "you're not imagining your wins hard enough" argument.

Alright, I'll say this again. The word of one NPC cannot be taken as objective truth, especially given that ninety-nine times out of a hundred, the interpreted "win" is wishful thinking, rather than a report of a fact.

"Blizzard didn't phase it right" is not an argument. Not until these wins are actually confirmed.


huh? how is not reading the quest text and accepting in game events "not imagineing hard enough"?

so... NPCs are lieing to players? all the time? only some of the time? what is the point of quests as a story delivery system if the quest text can be ignored?

look at the zones people complain about,
Ashenvale. the alliance flat out wins there, undoes the horde questing and isnt phased so it doesnt count as winning.
Swamp of Sorrows, isnt phased so it doesnt count.
Stone tallon isnt phased so it doesnt count.
the MoP starter zone has the alliance destroying the horde gunship, then landing a larger force than the horde ahead of the horde. the horde not being completely obliterated makes it an alliance loss for some reason.

there are zones where the alliance does loose, they exist, but the alliance has had the upper hand in the total conflict since cata.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Rogue
10305


Oh goodie... it's the "you're not imagining your wins hard enough" argument.

Alright, I'll say this again. The word of one NPC cannot be taken as objective truth, especially given that ninety-nine times out of a hundred, the interpreted "win" is wishful thinking, rather than a report of a fact.

"Blizzard didn't phase it right" is not an argument. Not until these wins are actually confirmed.


huh? how is not reading the quest text and accepting in game events "not imagineing hard enough"?

so... NPCs are lieing to players? all the time? only some of the time? what is the point of quests as a story delivery system if the quest text can be ignored?

look at the zones people complain about,
Ashenvale. the alliance flat out wins there, undoes the horde questing and isnt phased so it doesnt count as winning.
Swamp of Sorrows, isnt phased so it doesnt count.
Stone tallon isnt phased so it doesnt count.
the MoP starter zone has the alliance destroying the horde gunship, then landing a larger force than the horde ahead of the horde. the horde not being completely obliterated makes it an alliance loss for some reason.

there are zones where the alliance does loose, they exist, but the alliance has had the upper hand in the total conflict since cata.


I didn't say that NPCs were lying (I do love how that's the automatic resort though to the problem of absent assurance). I'm just saying that "I'm sure we'll push them out now!" is A) Not the same as "we just beat them" and B) Not reliable, given that only one person is saying it.

Blizzard also does phase outcomes. They did so quite heavily in Ashenvale. Those outcomes may not match up with your argument, but that does not make them invalid.
Edited by Kyalin on 2/9/2013 6:46 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warlock
0

Oh goodie... it's the "you're not imagining your wins hard enough" argument.


If I recall the arguments correctly, the idea that the Alliance had the upper hand in Cataclysm is largely based on the updates showing Alliance military forces apearing in Durotar, Azshara, and south Barrens.

Of course, as soon as we saw them involved in actual conflict they got their faces stomped in all three zones, but hey, they sure showed up there!
Edited by Kurze on 2/9/2013 7:01 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Warlock
10775
02/09/2013 06:45 PMPosted by Kyalin
I didn't say that NPCs were lying (I do love how that's the automatic resort though to the problem of absent assurance). I'm just saying that "I'm sure we'll push them out now!" is A) Not the same as "we just beat them" and B) Not reliable, given that only one person is saying it.


two things.

1: you are told you won, and the quest you just did shows you won. it just isnt represented via phasing so it doesnt count, this seems to be the total arguement. the quest action of beating the horde doesnt count because you arent rewarded with a visual of the horde loss, only an action and text that say the horde lost.

2: is it "lieing, or lying" both look wrong to me and im a new yorker so our grammar education stops in middle school(litteraly).
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Rogue
10305
1: you are told you won, and the quest you just did shows you won. it just isnt represented via phasing so it doesnt count, this seems to be the total arguement. the quest action of beating the horde doesnt count because you arent rewarded with a visual of the horde loss, only an action and text that say the horde lost.


Again, given that ninety-nine out of one-hundred quests "tell" you that you've won by saying "I'm sure we'll beat them now!", I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that you're actually being told that you won.

The quest objectives is also a bit wonky. Players perform dozens of quests which involve killing things and destroying things which make no impact on troop positions. Are you going to argue that all of the murloc killing quests culminated in people chasing the murlocs out of their villages now? Or did we clear out the ruins of Karabor when we fulfilled quests there?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]