The issue of Beast Slaying and 5.2

90 Gnome Mage
15265
I'm writing this to draw a bit of attention to a quite significant faction imbalance that will be apparent in 5.2. This post generally pertains more to competitive top-end raiding guilds.

Simply put, the troll beast slaying racial is far too strong with a tier that contains 4 beast bosses and multiple beast adds on several fights. A flat 5% damage boost is simply overpowered in an raiding environment where it's not uncommon to wipe at sub 2/1%-levels . We've already had a few top-end raiding guilds (Vodka, for one) switching to trolls just because Horde racials were already perceived to be better. Furthermore, trolls are already the highest representative race on caster dps in any high-end horde guild due to the very strong berserking racial.

I don't necessarily mind the current state of dps racials - sure, the Horde currently has a slight advantage, but the difference historically has small enough that solid play and execution will outweigh that benefit. However, a flat 5% buff on multiple progression fights in 5.2 is ridiculously strong. It is very uncomfortable to have such a strong incentive to faction swap, and it's something that my guild does not wish to consider doing in order to maintain our boss rankings.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Totally off topic, but I love your transmog.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9185
agree, should just be changed to not work on boss level NPC's, adds sure
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9080

.. there he was.

Just standing there.

Regenerating 5, health,per second.

I glared at the Troll.

The Troll glared back at me.

Silence flooded the world.

"And there's nothing you can do about it," the Troll whispered.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17550
Trolls are already one of the two best races for PvE, right up there with orcs. Because of their dpsing cooldowns, while blood elves hold the top spot for healers.

All top end raiding guilds are horde. The beast slaying talent should not work on boss level mobs, plain and simple, and then blizzard needs to get off their butts and do something about the ridiculous faction racial imbalance in PvE. It is ludicrous.
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90 Troll Druid
7405
I agree that beast slaying shouldn't work on Boss level mobs, nor any Beast adds in an encounter.

That said, the OP-ness of Humans and their racial in pvp is far more imbalanced than any Horde race is for pve. Also, increased rep gain in an expansion with almost all early upgrades being gated behind rep doesn't help the alt-gearing situation on the Horde side. People don't follow races in pvp as closely as they do races in pve to get the first heroic kill of the end boss of that tier, which is one reason you hear alot more about alliance pve guilds race changing than horde pvp guilds race changing.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14560
Agreeing with Vel here;

These sorts of imbalances have been around for far longer than just the upcoming tier.
And I do think it's causing some problems; And I do think some people are going to go troll just to squeeze that extra damage out on those bosses.
However that's only going to be the most loyal and dedicated of min-maxers;
Hence the world first races.

Which is kind of sad;
Something as minor as a racial shouldn't make people think this much.
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90 Gnome Mage
15265
I made this thread to draw attention to these issues for hardcore top-tier pve raiding - I'd rather not have this turn into a "Alliance have X in pvp, Horde have Y in PVE" kind of thread. (There's probably a better thread to discuss whether the Human trinket is overpowered or not)

And @Schwet - usually these racials don't matter that much - I'm alright with the status quo right now, (Horde racials are generally 1% better or less than Alliance ones for PVE) but 5% increased damage on 4 bosses and more with adds is far too big of an advantage, and such racials shouldn't dictate a faction switch.
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100 Troll Mage
16470
I would be happy if they got rid of it on boss fights. At the same time thats not that much of an increase for an average guild who may just have 1 or 2 trolls. Its also not on that many bosses, 4/13. Thats not too bad.
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100 Troll Hunter
17290
02/06/2013 03:12 AMPosted by Velaniz
I agree that beast slaying shouldn't work on Boss level mobs, nor any Beast adds in an encounter.

Maybe racials in general shouldn't work in boss fights?

Seriously, Beast Slaying has existed, I am fairly certain unaltered, since Vanilla, and nearly ever raiding tier since then has had beast mobs, and bosses, present. If hasn't broken anything yet.

This is not to claim that racials are not imbalanced, but instead simply stating, "hey, your race choice is OP, so we are going to gimp you where it is important, but don't worry, you can still kill the Jungle Grubs just as fast" is a little silly.

Edit: At the very least, you could suggest replacing it with something nearly as useful, just not as strong against specific boss types.
Edited by Verdash on 2/6/2013 5:32 AM PST
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90 Gnome Mage
15265
I agree that beast slaying shouldn't work on Boss level mobs, nor any Beast adds in an encounter.

Maybe racials in general shouldn't work in boss fights?

Seriously, Beast Slaying has existed, I am fairly certain unaltered, since Vanilla, and nearly ever raiding tier since then has had beast mobs, and bosses, present. If hasn't broken anything yet.

This is not to claim that racials are not imbalanced, but instead simply stating, "hey, your race choice is OP, so we are going to gimp you where it is important, but don't worry, you can still kill the Jungle Grubs just as fast" is a little silly.


Beast slaying has existed in unaltered since Vanilla simply because the racial has never really made much of an impact before before, because 1) in Vanilla, guilds were never all that competitive and game was relatively unbalanced in itself and 2) tiers after vanilla contained very few or no beasts at all. This tier is different:

- 4 bosses are beasts, and I believe 2 or 3 additional encounters contain significant beast presence. That's basically half of the fights in the instance.
- By comparison: (25-man raids only)
T4 : 1
T5: 0
T6: 0
T7: 1
T8: 0
T9: 1
T10: 0
T11: 2
T12: 1.5
T13: 0
T14: 1
T15: 4 bosses + 2 or 3 with beast adds

- a 5% flat damage increase is enormous in a raiding environment where racials regularly give a 1% boost. Applying this boost to half of the fights in a single tier is a bit ridiculous.
Edited by Napwneon on 2/6/2013 5:51 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
10675

.. there he was.

Just standing there.

Regenerating 5, health,per second.

I glared at the Troll.

The Troll glared back at me.

Silence flooded the world.

"And there's nothing you can do about it," the Troll whispered.
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92 Human Priest
5160
i think this a valid concern.

some might say that it isn't worth the time since it only really affects the top 100 guilds. however, people also have to consider China.

also, has it been confirmed which fight will be the DPS check of the raid?
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100 Dwarf Warrior
17075
It would be nice if we could make the choice of which race to play completely unencumbered from how that race may or may not affect your throughput. Orc/Troll perks are bad enough under normal circumstances, but to have a balance concern this large simply due to a racial is just silly.

There are enough things to min/max in this game. Race should be just about aesthetics, lore, animations etc. It's sad to see entire guilds making faction decisions because of this issue, and there's been more and more of that in recent months. It's even more of a no-brainer for new guilds forming up.
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90 Undead Priest
10815
02/06/2013 02:31 AMPosted by Awsham
agree, should just be changed to not work on boss level NPC's, adds sure
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100 Human Warlock
18665
Are these all fights where the key issue is DPS, and not execution? 5% damage is one thing on a Patchwerk-esque boss where the major hurdle is getting him down before berserk, but you know what that 5% damage helps when you're four minutes under berserk after you've finally figured all the mechanics out?

Nothing but e-peen.
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90 Gnome Mage
15265
Are these all fights where the key issue is DPS, and not execution? 5% damage is one thing on a Patchwerk-esque boss where the major hurdle is getting him down before berserk, but you know what that 5% damage helps when you're four minutes under berserk after you've finally figured all the mechanics out?

Nothing but e-peen.


Again, I'm talking about top-end raiding guilds where 5% makes a huge difference in getting a kill, irrespective of execution. Vodka was getting consistent 2% wipes on Gara'jal before they used the spellsteal method to kill it. Even on a fight like Sha of Fear - generally an execution-based encounter - 5% increased damage effectively eliminates an additional wave of adds, removing one of the most harrowing parts of the fight. to have such a differential between Horde and Alliance guilds is quite discouraging for competitive guilds.
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100 Troll Hunter
17290
Beast slaying has existed in unaltered since Vanilla simply because the racial has never really made much of an impact before before, because 1) in Vanilla, guilds were never all that competitive and game was relatively unbalanced in itself and 2) tiers after vanilla contained very few or no beasts at all. This tier is different:

- 4 bosses are beasts, and I believe 2 or 3 additional encounters contain significant beast presence. That's basically half of the fights in the instance.


I didn't mean to imply that it shouldn't be changed, but just disabling it for use in Raiding is not how to handle it, that was my issue. Also something to consider, the 4 beast bosses, are they DPS checks, or are they more of a mechanic, healer or tank check fight? If they are not a strict DPS check (i.e. Patchwerk or Ultraxion), then Beast Slaying will simply make it a little easier, instead of directly impacting the hard part of the fight.

And just to reiterate, if you are going to change it, than change it so it is more useful. I am fairly certain it is the only player ability left in the game that has impact to net damage against specific mobs. Even Exorcism no longer does additional damage to undead and demons (Holy Wrath does stun them, but not additional damage).

Also
T14: 2, not 1 (Stone Guard & Garalon).
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90 Human Mage
0
I agree that beast slaying shouldn't work on Boss level mobs, nor any Beast adds in an encounter.

That said, the OP-ness of Humans and their racial in pvp is far more imbalanced than any Horde race is for pve. Also, increased rep gain in an expansion with almost all early upgrades being gated behind rep doesn't help the alt-gearing situation on the Horde side. People don't follow races in pvp as closely as they do races in pve to get the first heroic kill of the end boss of that tier, which is one reason you hear alot more about alliance pve guilds race changing than horde pvp guilds race changing.


The human racial is pretty far from OP. It's just that it's pretty much the only viable PvP race for alliance. Most high end PvPer are either humans, or have gone horde, because overall, horde have the better racials for PvP.

Basically, you can pick almost any horde race except pandas and have a decent racial. Obviously, orc and undead are the best, but the others are alright too. For instance, would you rather be a night elf/Worgen druid, or a troll/tauren?
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100 Troll Hunter
17290
02/06/2013 08:11 AMPosted by Marcellena
For instance, would you rather be a night elf/Worgen druid, or a troll/tauren?

Troll, it isn't for the racials though.

I can be an Ahool!
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