Glyph of Totemic Recall worth it?

90 Draenei Shaman
3655
I know that it is technically possible to recall healing stream totem after the last tick and only be sacrificing an extra global to get a free 14,100 mana back with the glyph of totemic recall.

However, the healing from healing stream totem seems to be affected by latency. This is the only explanation I have for how the healing from it behaves (if I am wrong please correct me).

It is therefore impossible, especially in an environment where you are distracted and cant just watch your healing stream totem timer, to acurately cut the totem off without sacrificing any healing from it. You are almost gauranteed to clip one tick of it off and probably 2 at times.

Looking at logs from several top shamans, HST seems to be about 10-15% of total healing. So is reducing your overall healing by 1.5 - 3% worth the mana gain from using the glyph?
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/06/2013 08:00 AMPosted by Ðrakthar
Looking at logs from several top shamans, HST seems to be about 10-15% of total healing. So is reducing your overall healing by 1.5 - 3% worth the mana gain from using the glyph?


Yes it is the only glyph that is a must have for raiding. And with a simple tracking device pulling the totem with 1 sec remaining is pretty easy to do once you get used to it. Figure that HST recall nets you 14100 mana. On an 8 minute fight you get to use HST 16 times. Even if you only recall half og them it is still 112,800 mana returned. That is a third of your mana bar.
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90 Orc Shaman
10495
If you track your HST duration properly, you can recall it after the last tick has happened and still get the mana return (yes, HST and HTT work iffy in their ticks. Wtb consistency).

TR glyph can also work good if you are using Primal Elementalist, as you can drop the elementals and recall them when their duration is over, although it can conflict with HST recalls if you dont want to remove your Elementals yet.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Yes, yes, yes yes yes. It's a fantastic glyph.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11700
Personally, I don't use it. I tried glyphing it for H Empress, which was the first time I really had any mana concerns in a fight, but found that with my Elementals being up for 40% of the fight anyway, I wasn't making much use of it. I found it iffy whether or not the final tick got off (although to be fair, several times I did manage to recall it after my tracker said it had already disappeared, and still got the mana return).

The problem I have with it is that it does not just sacrifice a global and sometimes a tick on your Healing Stream Totem. You have to make sure you're *off* the global cooldown when it's time to recall the totem. And that means maybe not casting a heal that needed to be cast, just because you're trying to game your totem timer. *shrugs* It isn't worth the trade-off for me, and I haven't had any problems whatsoever in my mana management through some pretty intense encounters.

10-player raiders may weigh its value differently to 25-player raiders, though. I use Primal Elementalist because Unleashed Fury doesn't play nicely with Healing Rain, and Healing Rain is a major source of my healing in my 25-player format. This means I have Eles up 40% of the fight, and I actually use them, so for that time I can't really recall any totems. (I also use my totems for utility a lot, slowing adds or stunning things or even just keeping Searing Totem down to add a little smidgen of DPS, and Totemic Recall can interfere with that.) If you have the Unleashed Fury talent and do not make a lot of use of your non-Healing-Stream Totems, I guess it could look a lot more attractive.
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90 Draenei Shaman
3655
Worth it to get enough haste to (mostly) make sure the last tick pops just over 1 second to make it easier to recall it?

Talking instead of 8ish (before raid buffs) take haste to 10%?

Again correct me if I'm wrong, but with 13% haste you'll get ticks on HST every 1.77 seconds

15 - 13.23 - 11.46 - 9.69 - 7.92 - 6.15 - 4.38 - 2.61 - 0.84

At 15% you'll get ticks every 1.74 seconds

15 - 13.26 - 11.52 - 9.78 - 8.04 - 6.3 - 4.56 - 2.82 - 1.08

Esentially just gives you more of a buffer to reaction time and in dealing with latency to make sure you get both the last tick of HST and that you can recall it in time.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
It's a strong glyph, and can account for a very large amount of regen. I don't think it's mandatory though, and I definitely don't think you should change your stat priority (taking more haste) just to make it easier to use. If you take it, you just have to accept the fact that sometimes you can't use it because you don't want to recall another totem (primarily Primal Elementals), sometimes you can't recall because you can't spare the GCD, and sometimes you need the healing more than the mana and should let the last tick go off.

In theory, Primal Elementalist should only require you to not recall one HST per elemental dropped. If you drop HST at the same time as an elemental, and then 30 seconds later, the second HST will be ready to be recalled within a GCD of the elemental. Also, you don't need to be off the GCD; you can queue Totemic Recall up at the end of a cast or instant cast, and still get the mana back up to about a second after HST's duration timer is up.

It isn't mandatory, and it may cause more harm than good if paying too much attention to min maxing it affects your raid awareness/ability to use other things on CD properly, but you can easily get 100k+ mana per fight from using it effectively.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13770
It's not "mandatory" if you're not having any mana concerns at all, I suppose. That said, I think it's the best glyph we currently have, and using it can make a huge difference.

Seems like there's a flawed perception here though that I do not quite understand, regarding timing Recall to occur after the last tick, or clipping the last tick by Recalling "prematurely".

Yes, it is possible to get mana back shortly after the totem expired, and this is ideal. No denying that.

However, Recall would still be worth using even if it clipped the last 2 ticks, and there is really no harm in doing so. Would that reduce the effective HPCT of HST? Yeah, sure. But it still effectively makes HST a source of an awful lot of *free* healing.

If you refuse to use Recall because you clip the last tick (or 2, but that's poor timing on the player's part), you are effectively paying 14.1k mana for a single tick of HST and 1 GCD. 14.1k mana for about 30-35k healing. Nearly triple the cost of HW for approximately the same healing.

There will absolutely be times where the GCD is too important and you miss a recall. And that's fine. Using Recall 'effectively' does not have to mean 'perfectly timed, every time'. But if you don't think an additional 60-200k mana is "worth it" on most fights, then you're probably overhealing and overgearing the encounters.
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90 Draenei Shaman
3655
@ Caleko

Unrelated, but I'm curious as to why you've picked herbalism as one of your professions. You seem to be the min/maxing type, but from what I've heard the gathering professions pale in comparison to the production ones in terms of stat benefits to your character. Just curious if you know something I don't or you have just picked it up out of convenience for alchemy.

Thanks
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/07/2013 05:35 AMPosted by Ðrakthar
but I'm curious as to why you've picked herbalism as one of your professions.


Would guess they are a flower picking hippie.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
In theory, Primal Elementalist should only require you to not recall one HST per elemental dropped. If you drop HST at the same time as an elemental, and then 30 seconds later, the second HST will be ready to be recalled within a GCD of the elemental. Also, you don't need to be off the GCD; you can queue Totemic Recall up at the end of a cast or instant cast, and still get the mana back up to about a second after HST's duration timer is up.

This doesn't really make sense. If you drop HST and an elemental, then at 15 seconds you miss the first recall. At 30 seconds you drop another HST. At 45 seconds you miss the second recall. And then at 1min your elemental is gone and you're dropping another HST, which you can recall.

You could game it to only miss one recall if you drop HST 15 seconds before the elemental. Then you recall, drop the elemental, HST at 1 and 46 seconds, miss the first recall but get the second. Any major deviation from that timing means a loss of HST uptime and/or two missed recalls.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Kaels, I can only guess Tiberria included the glyph for FE.

Caleko summed it up pretty much. Until other glyphs start to matter, the opportunity cost of TR is zero. Even if you find other glyphs matter, there's still two slots that are free to vary per encounter. You would need a 4th runner-up glyph to even start caring whether the opportunity cost of TR is being challenged.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105

This doesn't really make sense. If you drop HST and an elemental, then at 15 seconds you miss the first recall. At 30 seconds you drop another HST. At 45 seconds you miss the second recall. And then at 1min your elemental is gone and you're dropping another HST, which you can recall.

You could game it to only miss one recall if you drop HST 15 seconds before the elemental. Then you recall, drop the elemental, HST at 1 and 46 seconds, miss the first recall but get the second. Any major deviation from that timing means a loss of HST uptime and/or two missed recalls.


You're right - it doesn't make sense now that I am not half asleep. What I am thinking is something like this sequence.

0:00 - Drop HST
0:14 - Recall HST
0:15 - Drop Fire or Earth Ele
0:30 - Drop HST
0:45 - HST Expires
1:00 - Drop HST
1:14 - Recall HST and Fire/Earth Ele

You can't always actually do this, because things like dropping Healing Rain on CD in most cases take higher priority (or healing someone about to die, etc). In a best case scenario, it is possible to only miss 2 recalls every 5 minutes and effectively recall 80% of HST and 100% of fire/earth ele.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Kaels, I can only guess Tiberria included the glyph for FE.

Caleko summed it up pretty much. Until other glyphs start to matter, the opportunity cost of TR is zero. Even if you find other glyphs matter, there's still two slots that are free to vary per encounter. You would need a 4th runner-up glyph to even start caring whether the opportunity cost of TR is being challenged.


I don't know that I would say the other glyphs don't matter. Here's a list of glyphs that I have found useful for different fights this tier.

Telluric Currents - I actually can't stand not having this glyphed. It basically gives you something productive (that is slightly mana positive) to do when your other option would be standing around or casting 50%+ overheal Healing Waves.

Healing Wave - Increases the HPM/HPS of Healing Wave by 20% on any fight where you are taking raid damage. I see up to a 2% output increase with this glyph on some fights

Spiritwalker's Grace - The extra 5 seconds is very useful for things like Lei Shi's getaway

Healing Stream Totem - On fights with a lot of magic damage, HST not only smart heals the lowest health target, but also adds a bit of damage mitigation, making this a nice bonus

Riptide - I hate this glyph and what it does for the "cadence" and mana efficiency of the spec, but it can be useful on fights like Blade Lord where you heavily value putting a lot of HoTs out prior to expected raid damage.

Fire Elemental Totem - Can be useful, because it lets you line up Fire Elemental and it's 10% healing buff with every Ascendance and/or Healing Tide use

Purge - Very useful on Heroic Spirit Kings
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17275
Telluric Currents - I actually can't stand not having this glyphed. It basically gives you something productive (that is slightly mana positive) to do when your other option would be standing around or casting 50%+ overheal Healing Waves.


Ugh. I would *so* much rather cast 50% overheal healing waves.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I don't know that I would say the other glyphs don't matter. Here's a list of glyphs that I have found useful for different fights this tier.


The list goes on. Maybe one day you could use Ghost Wolf. Perhaps sometime Cleansing Waters. Water Shield for some other encounters too. Heck, throw in Unleashed Lightning.

I'm not saying the glyphs have zero value--even though that is what I said--I'm saying they are generally imperceptibly nonzero compared to TR. Given a situational benefit increasing their value, the remaining two glyph slots can vary for exactly that purpose.

This is all in a HEP-maximized vacuum. Certainly TR can be dropped if you're not pressed for mana, and in fact TR could then negatively impact your performance under those conditions.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
02/07/2013 02:36 PMPosted by Taymage
Telluric Currents - I actually can't stand not having this glyphed. It basically gives you something productive (that is slightly mana positive) to do when your other option would be standing around or casting 50%+ overheal Healing Waves.


Ugh. I would *so* much rather cast 50% overheal healing waves.


Not me. In that situation, 50% overheal Healing Waves are often best case scenarios. Worst case is it just gets sniped/needs to be cancel cast. It's more the mana savings than anything. Healing Wave is mana negative (at least until you can reach 67% spell crit), whereas Lightning Bolt-Telluric Currents is slightly mana positive. In most cases (not saying all cases or that I never cast HW), I would rather save the difference in mana costs and use that extra mana to push burning more mana in more healing intensive periods of the fight.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13770
@ Caleko

Unrelated, but I'm curious as to why you've picked herbalism as one of your professions. You seem to be the min/maxing type, but from what I've heard the gathering professions pale in comparison to the production ones in terms of stat benefits to your character. Just curious if you know something I don't or you have just picked it up out of convenience for alchemy.

Thanks
Purely frugality/laziness, really.

I had just switched from JC to Herbalism right before MoP so I could level my alchemy quickly without spending a ton of money and maybe make some gold on the AH selling flasks and whatnot. I just haven't bothered to switch it for anything else since.

If totem haste breakpoints (HTT especially) were more reliable, a case could probably be made for being able to use Lifeblood to hit a breakpoint when macroed together, or something. I personally just have it macroed with Ascendance.

Realistically, though, missing 320 Int or something by not having a different profession really isn't going to make or break anything for my raids. Although there for a while I was seriously looking at going BS for the extra Spirit gems...but nowadays I'm typically fine on mana and can't be bothered to switch.
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