LFD loot

90 Goblin Shaman
8435
02/07/2013 12:02 PMPosted by Kungbrew
I agree. Believe me, I understand where the frustration comes from. I still get a bit peeved when my hunter loses something to a resto shaman, but I also understand that the same policies have worked in my favor on multiple characters and that overall they are better for the game.


You get frustrated with the resto shaman rolling on your gear, yet you don't understand why others would get frustrated in the reverse situation?

I make it a habit to let hunters know I'm not in the instance for agility mail. I also make it a habit to let druids/rogues/heck other shaman know I am not there for agility gear/trinkets.

Know why? Because I know how frustrating it was for me when I was technically the only agility using spec in the dungeon and having the resto shaman roll on that gear.

Just because someone's done it to you doesn't mean to do it to someone else.
Edited by Jujubiju on 2/7/2013 4:09 PM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
8565
Do you see what is wrong with that attitude, with that style of thinking, and why the community rules might be better to follow?


I'll follow it the day you make this comment as a Blizzard staffer and GM. Until then, no.

The anonymity of the Internet in general and LFD/LFR gives people the free reign to act as they please with no punishment risks


They have done nothing to be punished for, and again you are more than welcome to take it up with Blizzard. Dont be surprised when that missive winds up in the round filing cabinet

We may not be able to punish those that break them the way the players who played back when the realms were isolated could/did. However the rules, the ethical and moral code still applies.


Not to me it doesnt. I follow what Blizzard has laid down. They are in charge, not you.

There are so many "community unwritten rules" that change from person to person, based on their own whims from day to day. and quite frankly,. those "community rules' are garbage and far as I am concerned, irrelevant.

I would be interested to see just how many of these "unwritten rules" there are..my guess is it would be quite a list, and enough to drive anyone insane trying to cater to all of them in this game at the same time.

Blizz laid down loot rules for a reason, to streamline the issue and to quite seriously put a stop to all this self imposed and self asserted "rules" you demand people follow so slavishly.

Above I listed some I have already seen in this game, posted for all to see, if we were to spec and operate as all of these "rules" demand, then the entire structure comes crashing down.

Which is the main reason these "rules" are of no consequence, and why the loot rules laid down are the only ones I can and will follow. Tanks do not have the right to dictate who gets what loot or gear, same for healers, LFD is not run as master looter for this very same reason, you talk of entitlement, I talk of the self made entitlement of those who would have the majority of players held hostage to their whims and fancies based on little more than their own "moral code".

I dont give a rats about what went on in WOTLK..that is an OLD expansion and the environment and situation has changed radically in that time. I am not bound by the many and varied "player made rules" and I defy anyone to try and "punish me" for "breaking these rules"...because all that will get you is a addition to my ignore list and if you are obnoxious and abusive, a report as well.

The LFD loot rules are as they are for a specific reason, and I would suspect, as a method and a means to put a stop to the dictatorial shenanigans of people who would make themselves master looter by default, the "high and mighty" atop their moral pinnacle. We had enough of that kind of mentality in Cata.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3932853710?page=1

I will roll on what I perceive I need in a dungeon. If it is mail or plate or leather and I am on this toon, pass. If I am on my plate warrior, I will again roll need as I so choose. My warr has a prot spec and it is entirely likely I will be rolling on tank gear so I can gear to tank in MOP. Under LFD rules I am doing absolutely nothing wrong and neither you, nor anyone else, has the right or authority to tell me I am "not following the community rules".

MS/OS is old, archaic, and completely irrelevant. Far as I am concerned it does not exist.

I will be clear on this: bluntly put: I dont care for your "community rules" and I will not follow them. I do not need to, nor will I, 'ask permission", as I do not and never will agree in any way that I am required to do so, now will I, if ever confronted by this attitude, "hand it over".

The rules Blizzard has laid down, I will follow to the letter and the spirit.

Go ahead, post them all. Every single "player made rule" from Vanilla to today.

Every single one, then consider the chaos and absolute mayhem that would result were we to cater to the "moral crowd" who consider themselves the self made loot master and arbiter of who gets what and when.

Need before Greed or make your own group.

Thatisall.
Edited by Zhenogre on 2/7/2013 5:42 PM PST
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90 Goblin Shaman
8435
Despite the arguments here, I think people tend to forget something when it comes to 5 man loot- mainly from heroics:

Five man heroic gear is still a stepping stone into other content.

So, yes, it is an actual important step in gearing.

The way I view these arguments: it's not really a flaw in the community so much as it is on Blizzard's end.

I'm going to use the old LFR system as an example here:

In the old LFR system, Blizzard entrusted us to do the right thing and use the honor system. Obviously that didn't happen and the community found ways to tick each other off (didn't help when we had friend's rolling for their buddies, people rolling just to be jerks, etc).

So, they decided that since we can't play nice together and people do have differences of opinions on what a valid roll is- we have what we have now. It is by no means perfect, but it works.

So once again, we as a community are proving to Blizzard that we need our hands held...again.

It's kind of similar to the CRZ problems: certain servers/guilds have different rule sets on what's appropriate and what isn't.

I'll be very surprised if what I said on the bottom of page 7 doesn't happen next expac. That'll have to be the compromise Bliz comes up with to appease both sides.
Edited by Jujubiju on 2/7/2013 6:16 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Monk
10035
02/07/2013 04:08 PMPosted by Jujubiju
I agree. Believe me, I understand where the frustration comes from. I still get a bit peeved when my hunter loses something to a resto shaman, but I also understand that the same policies have worked in my favor on multiple characters and that overall they are better for the game.


You get frustrated with the resto shaman rolling on your gear, yet you don't understand why others would get frustrated in the reverse situation?

I make it a habit to let hunters know I'm not in the instance for agility mail. I also make it a habit to let druids/rogues/heck other shaman know I am not there for agility gear/trinkets.

Know why? Because I know how frustrating it was for me when I was technically the only agility using spec in the dungeon and having the resto shaman roll on that gear.

Just because someone's done it to you doesn't mean to do it to someone else.


No, you misunderstand. I understand why people in that situation get upset, but think that, in the end, it is the better direction for the game to go in. I get "upset" when it happens as a natural result of losing an item I want. No where did I suggest that I roll on items as some kind of revenge.
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90 Dwarf Monk
10035
Despite the arguments here, I think people tend to forget something when it comes to 5 man loot- mainly from heroics:

Five man heroic gear is still a stepping stone into other content.

So, yes, it is an actual important step in gearing.

The way I view these arguments: it's not really a flaw in the community so much as it is on Blizzard's end.

I'm going to use the old LFR system as an example here:

In the old LFR system, Blizzard entrusted us to do the right thing and use the honor system. Obviously that didn't happen and the community found ways to tick each other off (didn't help when we had friend's rolling for their buddies, people rolling just to be jerks, etc).

So, they decided that since we can't play nice together and people do have differences of opinions on what a valid roll is- we have what we have now. It is by no means perfect, but it works.

So once again, we as a community are proving to Blizzard that we need our hands held...again.

It's kind of similar to the CRZ problems: certain servers/guilds have different rule sets on what's appropriate and what isn't.

I'll be very surprised if what I said on the bottom of page 7 doesn't happen next expac. That'll have to be the compromise Bliz comes up with to appease both sides.


Except the people being "jerks" weren't those rolling for other specs; the problem with the old system, and Blizzard has stated this MANY times, was item trading, begging, and the aforementioned cruelty of rolling just for the hell of it. None of those deal with the discussion we are currently having.

Also, guild rules on what's appropriate have no bearing on the random dungeon finder. Guild rules exist to help further the progression of that particular guild. Individual players, however, are not responsible for the progression of every other player in the game, especially now considering that you are linked with multiple servers and aren't helping those on your fellow server. There is a potentially limitless pool of new players and alts that will keep needing gear.

What it "comes down to" is people's perception of the value of other people's need. Those who advocate MS>OS think that some situations make particular players special snowflakes and their needs are worth more. Those asking for fair rolls for gear that a character will use are asking for players to be treated at the level of players and to make a proper assessment of whether or not they really "need" the gear. Telling me I don't "need" that agi cloak because I'm healing you right now, when I'll be punching Zor'lok in the face tonight is arbitrary.
Edited by Kungbrew on 2/8/2013 4:47 AM PST
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90 Goblin Shaman
8435
02/08/2013 04:44 AMPosted by Kungbrew
Except the people being "jerks" weren't those rolling for other specs; the problem with the old system, and Blizzard has stated this MANY times, was item trading, begging, and the aforementioned cruelty of rolling just for the hell of it. None of those deal with the discussion we are currently having.


They fixed it in LFR, but you see this behavior in LFG. They just moved from one spot to another.

Also, guild rules on what's appropriate have no bearing on the random dungeon finder. Guild rules exist to help further the progression of that particular guild. Individual players, however, are not responsible for the progression of every other player in the game, especially now considering that you are linked with multiple servers and aren't helping those on your fellow server. There is a potentially limitless pool of new players and alts that will keep needing gear.

What it "comes down to" is people's perception of the value of other people's need. Those who advocate MS>OS think that some situations make particular players special snowflakes and their needs are worth more. Those asking for fair rolls for gear that a character will use are asking for players to be treated at the level of players and to make a proper assessment of whether or not they really "need" the gear. Telling me I don't "need" that agi cloak because I'm healing you right now, when I'll be punching Zor'lok in the face tonight is arbitrary.


The MS/OS thing has always been a player made thing- since Vanilla. It was still respected when LFG first came out. Just because Blizzard doesn't go by it, doesn't mean that those people that are for MS/OS are wrong. It's the ones that throw hissy fits about it that make things a huge argument in parties.

As I said earlier, I'm not going to throw a huge ruckus in party chat if someone doesn't go by that rule set. I'll send them a tell, ask them once if they mind trading, and don't bring it up again. Now people rolling on something totally inappropriate for them will get called out (mages rolling on obvious healing trinkets).

It wasn't until Cata that people (mainly from the newer servers in the battlegroups) started rolling on whatever the heck they felt like rolling on without even asking- and the attitude trickled down to a lot of the other servers. It wasn't as noticeable until around when LFR came out- when people were pulling all kinds of rolling shenanigans.

And, you didn't go back a page:

What I think they should do is input a modified version of the LFR system in:

Say the boss has 2 items you can use for any spec:

You get a chance to win one of those two items- maybe a 50/50 chance. You would only be rolling against the system in this case (like in LFR) and no one has to deal with drama. Plus the system decides what you win.

Makes the MS/OS folks happy, makes the "Free for all" rollers happy, shuts the enchanters up, etc.


Would be an almost perfect solution right here. I say almost perfect because you aren't always going to get the one you want.

It's only arguable if you make it a habit of wanting to see others be miserable (I've seen other people roll on things just to cause an argument <I wish I was kidding>).

It solves all the arguments also.
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Side note: Don't assume it's all about the loot to me. It's about showing other players the same respect I show them. Just because I'm not going to see them anymore, doesn't mean I don't ask if they mind if I roll for OS. If they don't mind, I'll roll. If they need it, I don't roll- simple as that.

Heck, I even ask if it's for my main spec. I can't tell you the number of times I've passed on something I could use just because that others persons need was greater.
Edited by Jujubiju on 2/8/2013 10:40 AM PST
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Ok we got player A on one side of the argument and player B on the other side of the argument.

Player A is used to playing a sertain way and does not want to change it.
Player B has a dapted to the new way and finds a benifit to it.

Both A and B have some level of polite players, jerks, and ways of coping.

In the end however a percent of A players want to control a random. This is were everything start making absolutly no sense what so ever. I can see how it was controled the old ways and that control had abuse as well. What it came down to is that people made their groups. Thus their way of policing made sense.

But wanting to control a random makes absolutly no sense what so ever. Because it is random and they had no effort what so ever in making that group. The right option is to make their own groups so they can control their play style but they don't want to.

They want an easy ride on an easy ride. My stance in this is that they will ruin a good loot system if they get their way. Much like it was done with LFR. The only thing wrong with this loot system is the wrongly tag loot.

But the only way to fix that is by getting a list of wrongly tag loot. Which can be done by the players. Blizzard stance on fixing wronly tagged loot is silent at the moment.
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90 Tauren Druid
9425
02/06/2013 03:48 PMPosted by Doomclan
MS should always take priority over OS


Which totally works within a structured loot obtaining system such as a Guild Raid Group. Within the raid group that I am in, I have a Main Spec that is Resto, and an Off Spec that is Feral. Everyone else within the raid group also has a Main Spec and an Off Spec -- MS rolls against OS. In this way, loot is distributed in a way that advances the goals of the team: to obtain loot that will help in defeating the next boss in the team's progression. If I take some Agility leather for my kitty spec away from our group's dps Monk, the group benefit is lost; the group benefits on the two or three fights that I go kitty, as opposed to all of the fights that the dps Monk is doing dps.

But in an LFD situation, there is no "group benefit". If I get a +Agility trinket instead of the Rogue, I benefit, he doesn't, but the five of us will still complete the heroic in progress. There is no long-term progression for LFD.

TL;DR - Main Spec/Off Spec does not exist in LFD. It only exists in a group setting with long term goals.
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Dont forget to add that the loot won on a random group that has no longe term affect. Also doesn't even have a short term affect. Because is really rare for the group memenber to use what he has just won. Reason being that if it changes the stats to his reforging he will not contribute to the group, specially if his hit or expertice cap goes down alot because the upgrade needs a reforge.
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Can I add that change sometimes start with letting go of old ways. One thing that always bother me was the use of the term LFD. Looking for raid/or dungeon...was use to form groups in chat.

The new system is called Dungeon Finder, or DF. maybe we can start moving forward if we let go of the LFD use for the term that should really be called DF. Because in the end no one is looking for dungeon anymore they are using Dungeon Finder a system that is random. It is not a player making or looking for groups anymore.
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90 Tauren Shaman
11420

I think maybe it's time to discuss it in this form:
1) What is your prefered method of rolling in the LFG?
2) Why?
3) Okay, why do you feel that way?
4) In cases of those that still sit with MS>OS, do you try to enforce it when you are with random people?
5) In the case of "I roll on it because it's for my class", do you:

a. Ask if everyone is kosher with that first?
b. Make sure no one else needs the item for the role they are playing before rolling on it?
c. Roll need anyway after someone has stated at the beginning of the run the exact piece they are after to please not roll on it?

These kinds of questions are what we should be talking about. Not getting at each others throats.


1) I prefer to defer to Mainspec / Offspec, and if possible, upgrades for that spec over sidegrades or asathetic (transmog only) purposes.
2&3) Why? because everyone is there for the loot in some capacity. Everyone would like to at the very least, vendor something for gold, or disenchant it for materials, maybe have a cool looking thing to transmogrify later. But i think the people that actually can use it for their class have a bit of a higher calling to that certain piece of loot. And of those people, the ones that are there currently in the spec, and it will most likely be equipped right away, i will see some benefitial effect from that as that upgrades helps carry THAT group the rest of the way through the dungeon.
4) No. I realize that however idealistic it would be, it's unrealistic to expect everyone will play that way. Once i realize that others in the group are needing everything under the sun, i will do the same. If i win a roll i do not need at that point, i will transfer the item to a mainspec person with bad gear at that point. It's my win, i can choose to do whatever i want with it at that point.

5) a) I don't ask to roll first; i check to see what other people in other rolls in other classes have rolled, and in some cases, i will inspect them after i see the role. If it looks like a legit upgrade for their current spec, i will pass. If there are people need rolling that might beat them, i'll roll for a chance to give it to them.
b) yes, i make sure no one else needs it before rolling need if i am the only one who hasn't rolled so far.
c) i NEVER do this. This is just a really low low thing to do.
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90 Worgen Mage
8565
MS should always take priority over OS


I will be clear on this: bluntly put: I dont care for your "community rules" and I will not follow them. I do not need to, nor will I, 'ask permission", as I do not and never will agree in any way that I am required to do so, now will I, if ever confronted by this attitude, "hand it over".

Blizzards rules always take priority over your little "morals".

It wasn't until Cata that people (mainly from the newer servers in the battlegroups) started rolling on whatever the heck they felt like rolling on without even asking- and the attitude trickled down to a lot of the other servers. It wasn't as noticeable until around when LFR came out- when people were pulling all kinds of rolling shenanigans.


They werent required to ask, nor was there any reason for them to do so. They dont do "as you say" they were not then, or ever, under your little thumb and they didnt have to ask you for permission.

Your "morals" dont trump Blizzard's rules as laid down for RDF and I again ask as to under whose authority gives you the right to tell others what they can or cant roll on?

Just who do you think you are, anyway?
Edited by Zhenogre on 2/8/2013 2:44 PM PST
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90 Goblin Shaman
8435
02/08/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Zhenogre
Just who do you think you are, anyway?


Someone who doesn't get completely ruffled because they have a differing opinion. Someone who's been playing a heck of a lot longer than you and has seen the direction the community is going. I've said it before and I'll say it again: arguments like this are what make Blizzard change the system- that's why we have the current LFR system.

Seriously, every single time this subject comes up- you get all kinds of emotional about it. We're having an adult conversation here, if you want to get all kinds of riled up- maybe you should close your browser for a while. I've had to do it myself when it comes to certain folks around here.

Have you bothered reading my posts in this thread? Or are you just focusing on what you feel like focusing on?

If you had bothered reading my posts, I've already stated that I don't cause issues about the way someone else rolls (unless it's someone obviously rolling on something not for their class<trinkets in this case> ).

Once again, I've already stated, I'll ask in a whisper if that person minds trading it, since it is a direct upgrade (direct upgrades are for the spec you are using; indirect are for your other spec) that I'll be using that run. But if they say no, I won't make an issue out of it.

For me, it's not about personal standards, my mother taught me to be polite; however, there is no reason for you to go all ballistic about the subject.

I remember a time when this community used to have some decency towards each other- sad part is, it was around the beginning of Cata.
Edited by Jujubiju on 2/8/2013 3:08 PM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
8565
I am not emotional, just sick to death of all the little "player made rules" that seem to suddenly appear.

Someone who doesn't get completely ruffled because they have a differing opinion.


There is no "opinion" and no discussion. The rules are as Blizz has laid down. No debate and no arguments. You are welcome to whisper me and ask me if i'd mind trading it. The answer will be flat but polite no.

I remember a time when this community used to have some decency towards each other- sad part is, it was around the beginning of Cata.


I was here pre Cata and trust me, it wasnt the rose coioured world you think it was.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
4885
1) What is your prefered method of rolling in the LFG?
2) Why?
3) Okay, why do you feel that way?
4) In cases of those that still sit with MS>OS, do you try to enforce it when you are with random people?
5) In the case of "I roll on it because it's for my class", do you:

a. Ask if everyone is kosher with that first?
b. Make sure no one else needs the item for the role they are playing before rolling on it?
c. Roll need anyway after someone has stated at the beginning of the run the exact piece they are after to please not roll on it?


1. MS > OS Though in the rare occurance that I need an item offspec and noones rolling main spec then I will roll.

2. Because that is the spec you are rolling through the dungeon as. Everyone has equal right to gear their mainspec, if you are there for offspec than que for that dungeon as offspec. Queing as a tank or healer just to get dps gear isn't a favorable excuse for me because you simply didn't want to wait. If you don't need to que as your dps spec, you don't need to roll on dps gear.

3. It just feels proper.

4. If a person offspec rolls an item without permission of the person who needed the item mainspec, I will initiate vote kick but if it was called fair game then I don't care.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
13860
If I need it for something, I'm going to hit the need button.

That's what it's there for.

Hell, just the other day I needed on a 463 sword even though I have a 463 mace, because I wanted to transmog the 2h sword instead. The stats were slightly more favorable to me, but even so, the main reason was the mog.
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90 Worgen Mage
8565
2. Because that is the spec you are rolling through the dungeon as. Everyone has equal right to gear their mainspec, if you are there for offspec than que for that dungeon as offspec. Queing as a tank or healer just to get dps gear isn't a favorable excuse for me because you simply didn't want to wait. If you don't need to que as your dps spec, you don't need to roll on dps gear.


Blizzard says otherwise.

They can queue in one spec and roll for another, and if you start in on them then you are harassing them for following Blizzards loot rules. Instant ignore. Whether or not they roll on what is not your business, is none of your concern, and as we are discussing "entitlement" here is another example of someone who sets themselves up as sole arbitrator

"Do as you are told or be kicked"

4. If a person offspec rolls an item without permission of the person who needed the item mainspec, I will initiate vote kick but if it was called fair game then I don't care.


Who says they need your permission?

Who says they are required to ask you?

Unwritten rules are irrelevant, inconsequential and have absolutely no validity whatsoever.
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90 Worgen Mage
8565
The point I am trying to make here is that these "unwritten rules" are why Blizz laid down these definitions in LFD to start with, to put an end to this arbitrary attitude.

Blizz doesnt and never has supported this "MS/OS" "rule" and have stated so many times.

The NeedGreed system is not perfect, granted. Some gear is not tagged correctly, again, granted, it's a bug, report it and it will be rectified.

But until I am told by the people who make this game that I am to follow these "unwritten rules", then there is no reason for me to abide by them, be governed by them, and if you kick someone for doing what Blizzard says is correct, then you are kicking people for no reason other than your own arrogance and entitlement as a self proclaimed 'arbitrator".

You are in fact abusing the system, abusing the kick function, and griefing someone who has followed what has been laid down by the people who made this game. for no other reason than "they did not do as I told them to".

NBG is standard for LFD, MS/OS may have an application in raids, again granted, so either do it that way in raids and nowhere else, or make your own group.

But neither you nor anyone else has any right to impose your "unwritten code" on people who did not agree to it at the start of the run.
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90 Draenei Shaman
5940
Once someone needs on something that isn't an upgrade for them or even possibly their offspec, I need on everything along with them unless they stop.
If you can't beat em, join em.
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90 Human Priest
4470
If I need it, I'll roll need. And if that gets me in trouble or kicked, so be it, still got my item.
Never have gotten mad about losing some roll to a OS (not real mad at least lol).
Still agree that the filtering should be a little more complex (mainly about item stats), specially now that each spec has a specific role and there are no hybrid builds that could use one or another type of stat.
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