5.2

100 Gnome Rogue
16250
I will start off by simply stating that while I am looking forward to the 5.2 changes, I don't believe they are going to really change the glaring issues with the Rogue Class.

Baseline Preparation is going to be a nice change, but the only CD that it resets that is really going to be worth it is Vanish. Evasion is just a bad cooldown with the nerfs to base dodge, it used to be with Evasion you got to nearly 100% avoidance for the duration now you get to something like 70%, it order for it to be any good one of 2 things needs to be done. Either make it miss chance increase or make it 100% dodge and reduce the duration to 8 seconds. Resetting Dismantle may be good in some rare situation, but its not something you would want to waste Preparation to reset, same with Kick and same with Sprint. I would much rather see 2 charges on Vanish and just a flat out removal of Preparation from the game.

I think the opening damage you could get with Marked for Death is going to be pretty nice, and since Versatility is such a colossal failure (it baffles me how this talent made it live) they could have put practically anything in its place and it would have been a more attractive choice.

I am really not sold on Cloak and Dagger especially for specs other than Subtlety. I think its far too spec dependent to be in the tree. It could change after playing around with it, coupled with Subterfuge jumping all over Silencing/Stunning 3 people around a node will be good support in BG. Not sure of how good itll be in Arena though.

Burst of Speed without a root break seems like its going to make it less attractive than it already is, although speeding around the map at almost mount speed in stealth should be entertaining.

Shuriken Toss not applying non-lethals is going to be annoying to say the least, I personally would rather see it stay the same as on live than for them to change it to this.

Deadly Throw might become more attractive not because of the interruption change but because of the change to ST to not apply crippling poison. So few classes hard cast it should be interesting to see how much use you get out of the range interrupt.

Blind back to 2 minutes, I heard this was because of ninja capping in RBG. I really don't think that is a valid justification, but I'm not overly concerned with a 30 second nerf.

Cloak of Shadows being 1 minute could be my favorite change of 5.2, rogues havent had cloak on a 1 minute CD since Wrath of the LK and that was if you talented it (which everyone did) and not a baseline 1 min CD since TBC. With the Glyph I might forget about how crappy Evasion is.

Smoke Bomb is a nice change and it really needed some sort of a buff/CD reduction. 3 minutes is just flat out too long for how Smoke Bomb works on live.

Nerve Strike reducing healing done by 10%, nice little buff don't know how noticeable itll be.

Shadow Focus nerf really doesn't seem like a nerf to me, the most expensive ability you can do out of stealth is Ambush and after this change it'll cost 15. Which you will regenerate in the global it takes to do it. So you will start your next ability with full energy anyway.

Vigor to 30 energy is a nice boost to openers and burst. It needed to be done, for far too long Rogue set bonuses have been very lackluster compared to other classes.

Blade Flurry changed to additional 4 targets instead of 1 is an understandable change. I'm not a fan but I get it.

Sub and Combat needed slight damage buffs to compete with Assassination.

As nice as some of the new changes are going to be they really don't address the real problems with the Rogue class at least not enough anyway. Evasion still needs a redesign. Recuperate is far too costly in resources for being such a underpowered heal over time. And we will still have too hard of time stay on target. Talents like Nightstalker, Leeching Poison, Cheat Death, and Deadly Throw will remain vastly underrepresented in 5.2.

I would suggest baselining Deadly Throw it has no business being on the tree especially where it is and replacing it with Deadened Nerves (10% DR all the time).

Nightstalker could grant 20% movement increase in stealth and 10% out of stealth and/or increase damage done for 3 seconds after breaking stealth (the damage buff is mostly wasted because Garrote damage is pitiful and you rarely open with Ambush in PvP).

Cheat Death in favor of a talent that makes Recuperate a passive effect.

Making Leeching Poison replace recuperate and increase the healing from the shiv heal to around 10-12%.

With the changes to Cheat Death and Leeching I would suggest allowing feint to be cast while stunned. Perhaps make the Glyph do that instead of increase the duration.
Edited by Newkie on 2/7/2013 12:31 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
7390
02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
I will start off by simply stating that while I am looking forward to the 5.2 changes, I don't believe they are going to really change the glaring issues with the Rogue Class.


i will start off my response by asking; have you played on the PTR recently?

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Baseline Preparation is going to be a nice change, but the only CD that it resets that is really going to be worth it is Vanish.


absolutely false. dismantle, evasion, sprint, these are all powerful and / or useful cooldowns.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Evasion is just a bad cooldown with the nerfs to base dodge, it used to be with Evasion you got to nearly 100% avoidance for the duration now you get to something like 70%, it order for it to be any good one of 2 things needs to be done.


yes, Evasion is not great but 50% more dodge is useful.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Resetting Dismantle may be good in some rare situation, but its not something you would want to waste Preparation to reset, same with Kick and same with Sprint.


you should not be wasting prep only to reset one ability.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
I think the opening damage you could get with Marked for Death is going to be pretty nice, and since Versatility is such a colossal failure (it baffles me how this talent made it live) they could have put practically anything in its place and it would have been a more attractive choice.


i agree. however, MFD has much more potential then only affecting out openers. ( ST is still better the majority of the time.)

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
I am really not sold on Cloak and Dagger especially for specs other than Subtlety. I think its far too spec dependent to be in the tree.


well yeah, you pretty much only want CnD as sub. Shadowstep will still be awesome, and you can get that for the other two specs, or even sub if you want.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Burst of Speed without a root break seems like its going to make it less attractive than it already is, although speeding around the map at almost mount speed in stealth should be entertaining.


Shadowstep is still there to pick!

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Shuriken Toss not applying non-lethals is going to be annoying to say the least, I personally would rather see it stay the same as on live than for them to change it to this.


i agree. ST in 5.2 is putting out some very impressive damage though.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Blind back to 2 minutes, I heard this was because of ninja capping in RBG. I really don't think that is a valid justification, but I'm not overly concerned with a 30 second nerf.


blind being made to a 2 minute CD doesn't effect ninja capping in RBG's. we can still do it.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Cloak of Shadows being 1 minute could be my favorite change of 5.2, rogues havent had cloak on a 1 minute CD since Wrath of the LK and that was if you talented it (which everyone did) and not a baseline 1 min CD since TBC. With the Glyph I might forget about how crappy Evasion is.


it is indeed a very nice buff :)

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Smoke Bomb is a nice change and it really needed some sort of a buff/CD reduction. 3 minutes is just flat out too long for how Smoke Bomb works on live.

i believe 3 minutes on smokebomb is pretty fair. it's an immensely powerful CD and now it will have even more utility.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Shadow Focus nerf really doesn't seem like a nerf to me, the most expensive ability you can do out of stealth is Ambush and after this change it'll cost 15. Which you will regenerate in the global it takes to do it. So you will start your next ability with full energy anyway.


yup! it's not much of a nerf st all. just a tweak to stop BoS abuse.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Vigor to 30 energy is a nice boost to openers and burst. It needed to be done, for far too long Rogue set bonuses have been very lackluster compared to other classes.


yes, 30 is a good balance between current and the original 50.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
As nice as some of the new changes are going to be they really don't address the real problems with the Rogue class at least not enough anyway.


whenever people say this, i just feel it is a very selfish thing to be said. we are receiving numerous buffs, we are absolutely going to be in a much better position.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Recuperate is far too costly in resources for being such a underpowered heal over time.


my fully geared spriest has 6.5k renew ticks. recup is healing me in the PTR for 14.5k every 3 seconds. pretty good if you ask me.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
And we will still have too hard of time stay on target.

well, we can get the target when we need to burst unless we are being CC'd. that is what counts i suppose. in the mean time we can spam the super awesome shuriken toss if we are unable to get into melee range.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
I would suggest baselining Deadly Throw it has no business being on the tree especially where it is and replacing it with Deadened Nerves (10% DR all the time).


deadly throw should have been baseline in mop release imo.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Talents like Nightstalker, Leeching Poison, Cheat Death, and Deadly Throw will remain vastly underrepresented in 5.2.


every class has underrepresented talents.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
With the changes to Cheat Death and Leeching I would suggest allowing feint to be cast while stunned. Perhaps make the Glyph do that instead of increase the duration.


damage reduction during a stun is a niche ability that few classes have.
i also feeld amage reduction abilities that can be used in a stun are lacking in the skill department.

i would rather see feint duration refreshed upon being stunned ( if feint was already on you.)
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100 Gnome Rogue
16250
02/07/2013 12:45 AMPosted by Viiss
whenever people say this, i just feel it is a very selfish thing to be said. we are receiving numerous buffs, we are absolutely going to be in a much better position.


Oh I completely agree that we will be in a better spot, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

02/07/2013 12:45 AMPosted by Viiss
my fully geared spriest has 6.5k renew ticks. recup is healing me in the PTR for 14.5k every 3 seconds. pretty good if you ask me.


5 combo points for a hot that heals for (assuming 400k hp) 16000 - 30% = 11200
with the glyph 18000 - 30% = 12600 is too expensive. Renew costs practically no resources and it isnt the only heal a spriest has.

02/07/2013 12:45 AMPosted by Viiss
every class has underrepresented talents.


I suppose you are right on this, but that really isn't a defense of why they don't address the issue.

Anyways thanks for the response.
Edited by Newkie on 2/7/2013 12:40 PM PST
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90 Human Rogue
uhh
6070
evasion is crap... period... most stuns are AOE or spells now and or both and once stunned u have 0 dodge... feint while stunned... that is all... put a CD on it for all i care just useable while stunned and GG
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6885
02/07/2013 12:38 PMPosted by Newkie
every class has underrepresented talents.


You can give me any class' underrepresented talents in place of Nightstalker, BoS, Nerve Strike, and atm Versatility. Because they are all better than Rogue talents like those mentioned.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
14765
02/07/2013 12:45 AMPosted by Viiss
well yeah, you pretty much only want CnD as sub. Shadowstep will still be awesome, and you can get that for the other two specs, or even sub if you want.

02/07/2013 12:45 AMPosted by Viiss
Shadowstep is still there to pick!


Thought the point of this new talent system was actual choices? If you are forced to pick shadowstep as Combat/Assassination because the other 2 options are !@#$ty, is there choice? At least sub will have a choice in 5.2 between harder to stop burst + amazing shadowdance utility or the more consistent shadowstep. The BoS is an overall nerf to an underused ability. The root removal might have been compensated by a guaranteed speed proc + energy reduction, but not the snare immunity removal (assuming it is gone, still haven't heard 100% proof from people on PTR).

02/07/2013 12:45 AMPosted by Viiss
my fully geared spriest has 6.5k renew ticks. recup is healing me in the PTR for 14.5k every 3 seconds. pretty good if you ask me.


Remember that damage reduction makes healing more effective. So just having 15% passive DR from Shadowform essentially makes that renew 15% more effective compared to a rogues recuperate. On top of the fact that they sacrifice essentially a GCD to put it up, while rogues sacrifice 10 energy and either a 6-8 second CC, a large single damage attack, 20% dmg debuff/venomous wounds/restless blades proc, or slice and dice which is a huge increase to rogue sustained dmg.

02/07/2013 12:45 AMPosted by Viiss
whenever people say this, i just feel it is a very selfish thing to be said. we are receiving numerous buffs, we are absolutely going to be in a much better position.


If your class got a laundry list of changes that mostly included things like .5% AP increases, .5% dodge increase, or other tiny buffs would you say the class would "be in a much better position"? No, which obviously means the number of buffs a class receives is irrelevant and the real factor here is the size or type of buffs received.

Not to say some of those aren't large buffs, at least in my opinion, but another rogue might feel they are relatively small buffs or the wrong kind of buffs that don't address the real issues and thus likely feel that we won't be in a "much better position".

For example:

Shuriken Toss - Some might say its a buff because now we can apply our already strong passive damage from range. Some might say its an overall nerf because we lost the ability to apply non-lethal poisons.

Burst of Speed - Some might say its a buff because its cheaper, usable while stealthed, and always gives +70% speed. Some might say its a nerf because of the loss of root removal and snare immunity.

Prep baseline - This is a buff. But now rogues disagree on how large of one. Some feel the only good thing is the vanish reset since they don't find much value in sprint/evasion/dismantle reset. Some rogues feel this is huge because they do value the sprint/evasion/dismantle reset. Honestly I'm part of the crowd who would say its really only useful for the vanish and maybe dismantle.

Cloak - Probably the only change you'd be hard pressed to find someone saying it isn't a large buff. Though some might feel they were better off with longer cooldown but chainable cloaks.

Energy - Buff but people will disagree on how big a buff it is. More amazing for Sub due to allowing probably an extra ambush in shadowdance, less so for the other 2 specs.

So again, just because rogues are getting a lot of changes, doesn't mean people can't disagree on the size and scope of said changes. Some rogues feel the changes don't address our real issue of passive survivability (IE we die too easily in stuns). Some feel they are relatively minor. So it isn't selfishness at all.

02/07/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Newkie
Shadow Focus nerf really doesn't seem like a nerf to me, the most expensive ability you can do out of stealth is Ambush and after this change it'll cost 15. Which you will regenerate in the global it takes to do it. So you will start your next ability with full energy anyway.


The change makes no difference if you are at full energy for almost everything except Ambush and even then its very, very minor. The change is a nerf if you are at less than full energy.

For example, you vanish at 40 energy and then follow with a cheap shot. I'll do 2 parallel lines to show the energy you would end up with after each GCD is over. Each arrow is 1 GCD. Cheap Shot costs 10 energy with 75% shadow focus.

Vanish --> Cheap Shot -->

Post-nerf: 40 --> 50 --> 50
Pre-nerf: 40 --> 50 --> 60

So if you were at less than full energy, the nerf essentially leaves you with less energy now. At full energy the extra regen doesn't matter since you are full energy.
Edited by Zalzirim on 2/7/2013 2:47 PM PST
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02/07/2013 02:25 PMPosted by Focksy
evasion is crap... period... most stuns are AOE or spells now

Its only really good against other rogues... but im usually the only rogue in the bg/arena...
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