Scorch Fire only, New talent Flameglow

90 Troll Mage
14395
02/06/2013 11:45 AMPosted by Exosphere
arcane was never meant to be mobile...you stupid !@#$.


Arcane Barrage does a lot of damage, is instant, and has a 3 second cooldown. That's pretty good mobile dps when threaded between Fire Blasts and Ice Lances.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Mage
11495
02/04/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Affx
Praise Jesus, I hope this sticks. I love the super movement of fire but hate choosing between it and PoM. Makes so much more sense this way.

PoM fire w/ scorch will probably be too strong, as scorchless fire is already viable with zero sustained damage. Having sustained damage on top of it probably won't be balanced.


Exactly, muahahah!
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
13280
The way the talent Flameglow works is it uses your spellpower as a flat damage reduction to any hits that you take, with a maximum of 30% reduction of the hit. The spell power flat reduction formula is your Spell Power divided by 5 (may change again as PTR goes)

So as an example,

let's say you have 10000 spellpower (for simplicity purposes). Then you will have 2000 damage reduction.

If an incoming hit damages you for 6666.666 damage, you will take 4666.666 (2000 damage reduction)

If an incoming hit damages you less than 6666.666 damage, you will take only 70% of the damage (due to cap 30% damage reduction, therefore you are not reducing hits by exact 2000, otherwise you will take 0 damage from hits less than 2000 damage)

If an incoming hit damages you for 10000 damage, you will take only 8000 damage (2000 reduction, 20% of the actual hit).

For that reason, in order to use your spell power full amount of damage reduction (maximum use of spell power as flat damage reduction), the damage you take will have to be higher or equal to 66.66% of your spell power. Any hits below that number, you will gain 30% damage reduction, but not using your flat damage reduction potential. Also as the damage gets higher, the damage reduction remains flat, and so the % reduction becomes smaller. It's not a flat 30% permanent damage reduction to all hits.

Since this damage reduction threshold can be increased by increasing your spellpower, picking this talent means you can use your offensive abilities/items that increases your spellpower (trinkets, etc) to gain better passive damage reduction for the duration.

It will be interesting to see how the reduction works against damages from dots though.

Correct me if my Math is wrong, i am not too good in it :-}

Edit: corrected information, they added coefficient of (SP/5) as the damage reduction value
Thanks Emeka (poster below), i have changed the whole post to reflect it
Edited by Milktea on 2/6/2013 5:40 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
14395
The way the talent Flameglow works is it uses your spellpower as a flat damage reduction to any hits that you take, with a maximum of 30% reduction of the hit.

So as an example,

let's say you have 10000 spellpower (for simplicity purposes).

If an incoming hit (any hit, mind you, be it physical, spell, etc), damages you for 10000 damage, you will take only 7000 damage (3000 reduction because its 30% of the damage).

For that reason, in order to use your spell power full amount of damage reduction (maximum use of spell power as flat damage reduction), the damage you take will have to be 3.33 times higher.

In the example case above, if an incoming hit damages you for 33333.3333 damage, then your spell power will kick in with their full value as flat damage reduction (as 10000 spell power is 30% of 33333.3333 damage).

On the other hand, using the example above, if you take damage 100000 damage, you will take 90000 damage instead (10% reduction).

In short, the talent gives the maximum 30% damage reduction as long as the damage you are taking is less or equal to 3.33 times the value of your spellpower, losing effectiveness as the damage you take is higher than that number. It's not a flat 30% permanent damage reduction to all hits.

It will be interesting to see how the reduction works against damages from dots though.

Correct me if my Math is wrong, i am not too good in it :-}


Good analysis. Basically whichever number is smaller. Also, it seems as though Ice Barrier is 20%~ damage reduction (absorbs about 20% of our health in damage, modified by spell power), meaning that the point in which Flameglow is passed up by Ice Barrier in effectiveness is when the damage taken in any one hit is greater than or equal to 5 times our spellpower (this is rough napkin math, but probably a decent guideline).

I really really hope, for the sake of usefulness, that it works for any single time you take damage (including dots and channeled abilities), so that way it becomes pretty obvious which option is better depending on the fight (TS for huge bursts, IB for bursts and dots, and FG for dots).
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
13385
I personally don't like this approach. I think Ice Floes will become a dead talent for fire as a result and I dislike passives vs on-use in the same tier. It usually turns out to be "here is the less optimal choice that requires no skill".
Edited by Yurisa on 2/6/2013 4:40 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Mage
19870
02/06/2013 04:31 PMPosted by Yurisa
I personally don't like this approach. I think Ice Floes will become a dead talent for fire as a result and I dislike passives vs on-use in the same tier. It usually turns out to be "here is the less optimal choice that requires no skill".


Gotta disagree. For the first time for fire I see an actual choice in the first tier. Currently you need scorch as fire, period. Ice Floes vs PoM somewhat depends. I can see uses. I know everyone is thinking PoM Pyro, but really is basically equal to a crit. Technically the highest single target, but a pretty tiny value. I can see ice floes as an option as it will mean higher damage moving or moving while sheeping or moving while using ring or etc. I think ice floes might be taken for the first time by fire mages.

And lots of classes have passives vs on use abilities. And it looks like the numbers will be pretty balanced. Less total mitigation, but more open GCDs. Close enough that it is a choice. I don't think flameglow will be less optimal. I think it will be a matter of value on a fight. Take Garalon. I did the math, with some rounding. With flameglow you will take somewhere around 25k extra damage every 25 secs. With ice barrier you will spend one extra GCD every 25 secs. So, is an extra GCD worth 25k damage taken every 25 secs? I think it is since you will get the AE heals anyway. Much more then that and it probably wouldn't be. So I think each one of the talents will have a niche place. Each one will have fights it is worth using.

That is my take anyway.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
8725
let's say you have 10000 spellpower (for simplicity purposes).

If an incoming hit (any hit, mind you, be it physical, spell, etc), damages you for 10000 damage, you will take only 7000 damage (3000 reduction because its 30% of the damage).


If you have 10000 spellpower, you're capped at 2000 dmg absorption based on the first line of the spell description. The cap of the spell is 30%. You would need 15000 spellpower to get the full 30% for this one example.

Flameglow
Requires Mage
Requires level 30
Protects you with fiery energy, absorbing ($SPFI * 20 / 100) damage from each attack against you (up to a maximum of 30% of the attack).
Edited by Emeka on 2/6/2013 5:04 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
13385
02/06/2013 05:00 PMPosted by Neeber
Gotta disagree. For the first time for fire I see an actual choice in the first tier. Currently you need scorch as fire, period. Ice Floes vs PoM somewhat depends. I can see uses. I know everyone is thinking PoM Pyro, but really is basically equal to a crit. Technically the highest single target, but a pretty tiny value. I can see ice floes as an option as it will mean higher damage moving or moving while sheeping or moving while using ring or etc. I think ice floes might be taken for the first time by fire mages.


Was talking about PvE, but "needing scorch period" isn't really true for either.

And lots of classes have passives vs on use abilities. And it looks like the numbers will be pretty balanced. Less total mitigation, but more open GCDs. Close enough that it is a choice. I don't think flameglow will be less optimal. I think it will be a matter of value on a fight. Take Garalon. I did the math, with some rounding. With flameglow you will take somewhere around 25k extra damage every 25 secs. With ice barrier you will spend one extra GCD every 25 secs. So, is an extra GCD worth 25k damage taken every 25 secs? I think it is since you will get the AE heals anyway. Much more then that and it probably wouldn't be. So I think each one of the talents will have a niche place. Each one will have fights it is worth using.

That is my take anyway.


I am sure there will be a few outlier fights where it is optimal. That doesn't really affect my opinion though. They could even go the opposite direction and have it make the other talents obsolete except for outlier fights and that situation would be even worse than my first statement(again, only in my opinion).
Edited by Yurisa on 2/6/2013 5:12 PM PST
Reply Quote
92 Human Paladin
7310
These changes are -awesome-, very much like them!

Do not understand the complaining by, of all people, arcane mages, that scorch is being moved into fire. It was always a FIRE spell, used to even be a talent for mages back in the day if I'm remembering correctly. Differentiating the specs even more is not a bad thing.

Never understood why scorch was with pom and icy floes or why blazing with ice barrier and temp... it was stupid, this fixes that.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
13385
Scorch was baseline for all mages until MoP. In Cata Firestarter(?), a fire talent, allowed it to be cast on the move. I could have fuzzy memory as well though.
Edited by Yurisa on 2/6/2013 5:22 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
8860
YES PLEASE.

arcane felt VERY VERY weird with scorch weaving... I disliked it a lot.

I was a fire mage mainly in cata and fire without scorch would feel very weird to me as well.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Mage
19870
02/06/2013 05:18 PMPosted by Yurisa
Scorch was baseline for all mages until MoP. In Cata Firestarter(?), a fire talent, allowed it to be cast on the move. I could have fuzzy memory as well though.


It was. Kind of like fireball, frostbolt, etc. Off specs never used it, but yes they technically had it.

02/06/2013 05:08 PMPosted by Yurisa
Was talking about PvE, but "needing scorch period" isn't really true for either.


I was talking PvE as well. I mean I guess on a non-movement fight you could ignore a movement talent. But really if you were doing any kind of movement fight with anything other then scorch as a fire mage, you where doing it wrong.

02/06/2013 05:08 PMPosted by Yurisa
I am sure there will be a few outlier fights where it is optimal. That doesn't really affect my opinion though. They could even go the opposite direction and have it make the other talents obsolete except for outlier fights and that situation would be even worse than my first statement(again, only in my opinion).


I think optimal will be a mater of choice. I really think it is going to be a situation where Ice barrier stops more damage, but cost you a GCD. So, where to you draw the line. What amount of damage is okay to get that extra GCD in. If your healers are struggling, maybe ice barrier is automatically it. If they are not, maybe they can hand the extra and you can get more damage dealt in. What I am getting at is that it will be an actual choice. As opposed to choosing ice barrier or blazing speed, which was not really a choice.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
14395
Flameglow simply trades the high skill cap of using an ability correctly depending on the situation to having a high skill cap of taking the talent when you know it will be better based on the situation. It's easier to use but harder to use at the right point. Sure it's a lazy choice, but as has been said, the talent choices currently in the game are riddled with active versus passive choices, and it really depends on the player which one suits them more.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
13385
02/06/2013 07:18 PMPosted by Neeber
I was talking PvE as well. I mean I guess on a non-movement fight you could ignore a movement talent. But really if you were doing any kind of movement fight with anything other then scorch as a fire mage, you where doing it wrong.


Plenty of people find encounters where they don't need the uptime of scorch or even Ice Floes. It's far from mandatory on every fight.
Edited by Yurisa on 2/6/2013 10:17 PM PST
Reply Quote
ooooo looks like fire is going to be fun again....

Im really excited too see this flameglow talent.

I'm really curious how Flameglow will do in PvP.
Edited by Searik on 2/7/2013 12:12 AM PST
Reply Quote
We agree with the feedback that Blazing Speed makes more sense grouped with the movement talents than with the defensive talents.
Actually strictly speaking those first tier talents are casting while moving talents, not simple movement talents, and Blazing Speed doesn't really seem to belong there.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
14395
02/07/2013 01:46 AMPosted by Tearlag
We agree with the feedback that Blazing Speed makes more sense grouped with the movement talents than with the defensive talents.

Actually strictly speaking those first tier talents are casting while moving talents, not simple movement talents, and Blazing Speed doesn't really seem to belong there.


Standstill fight? Pick PoM
Need to move every once in a while? Pick Ice Floes
Need to get out of stuff a lot? Pick Blazing Speed

Sounds like they all have niches to me. Scorch was not a "casting while moving" talent as much as "take this by default unless you think you can squeeze out some slightly better numbers or do some parlor tricks with CC" talent. It was too good, I think the current set up is a lot better balanced and all 3 options look appealing in both PvE and PvP.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Mage
12975
I'm preferring having the choice. People can rail against passives, skill-caps and how nobody is as good as they are all they want. But Blizzard is successful because they know how to market the game, and make it possible to pick up and play. Easy to play, Harder to master I think their mantra was at one point.

This also ties in with what I perceive as the ability to allow us to do most encounters with any talent, without being crippled. But we can choose to adapt to the situation as well.

Temporal Shield will still be my go-to for big, predictable burst fights. And even has some use in pvp against heavy DD classes.

Ice Barrier will likely still be the most popular talent choice, but it won't feel quite so much that it's the /only/ talent choice. Still think they need to consider removing spell pushback altogether though.

As for how Flameglow will perform, I will be interested to see. I would still prefer to have our tools for avoiding damage altogether. But it appears it will be situational as well, and will likely have a niche where it will excel.

With how the mobility talents work; As fire it seemed to be Scorch or PoM. Depending on whether you moved a lot or a little.

Ice Floes being adjusted was sorely needed. And will allow it to see some actual use. And in cases of PvP - I can see myself using all three talents since I typically BG. Being able to give chase with something more than scorch with Ice Floes, short of being dispelled.

Blazing Speed I am very interested in, and hope it will be for the best. Mages don't need to be untouchable, but as fire I certainly feel much more pressure from melee due to the tools they have to close any gaps I can make. Much less DPS within.

And then PoM is still PoM; Using it with RoF was too strong in PvP situations. I will likely still be using that or perhaps considering Ice Ward.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
Gotta disagree. For the first time for fire I see an actual choice in the first tier. Currently you need scorch as fire, period.

Non-scorch fire is a gimmicky but very viable build. It's awful to play, it only works because Fire's damage during DF->combustion is broken, but it works.
Reply Quote
I have to admit these changes look great. I believe that Scorch should be fire only.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]