Totems as Spells.

90 Human Priest
14650
With Mists of Pandaria, many changes were brought to healing in Arenas.

Paladin "wings" could no longer be spell stolen, Monk statues have absurd amounts of health, and Eternal Flame ensured Paladins never have to cast.

Why then, are totems spells? If a paladins major cooldown doesn't have any risk, monk's small cooldown for big healing output takes no risk, why is it, that shaman have their biggest asset (totems) either completely prevented, or instantly killed?

Proposition:

Totems are no longer targetable, and/or no longer spells.

You can't auto-shot a paladins wings or divine favor, why does a simple tab target crush a Shamans biggest cooldown? why does a strangulate completely destroy a shamans team with a swifty macro going off?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
5110
Bump. I'd like to see more people address this. Great idea. I think the change was completely uncalled for and I have yet to see anyone defend this change.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
11180
It was the classic Blizzard explanation. It was always intended to be like this, we just didn't bother fixing it for 7 years.
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You realize totems were spells--not physical--until WotLK, right?
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90 Orc Shaman
6975
because resto was unkillable for 2mnths. thats why totems are spells. No other explanation needed. Blizz had to nerf them for pvp, w/o effecting pve. This was there fix.
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90 Human Priest
14650
02/06/2013 06:32 AMPosted by Oldfugly
because resto was unkillable for 2mnths. thats why totems are spells. No other explanation needed. Blizz had to nerf them for pvp, w/o effecting pve. This was there fix.


Except Shaman are the easiest to kill outside of a disc priest.

Melee Cleaves, KFC, and Warrior/Mage, destroy shamans.

Deep, into CS, and the shaman is dead because he can't link or HTT.

Not to mention, out of ALL the healers right now, Shaman cast the most, I leave monks out because their current arena representation is terrible.
Edited by Velayn on 2/6/2013 10:28 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
16065
You know something is wrong when even a healer can one-shot a totem =x
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90 Human Warrior
7500
As a warrior facing a shaman healer id have to say its the easiest to kill of all healers,priest are comparable to how easy to kill except their cooldowns id have to wait through then continue to damage whereas shamans will drops a totem a macro will auto switch to and kill .2 sec after being dropped as if it didn't happen at all <.< that certainly needs to be addressed.
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90 Draenei Shaman
3655
whereas shamans will drops a totem a macro will auto switch to and kill .2 sec after being dropped as if it didn't happen at all <.< that certainly needs to be addressed.


Blizz broke any macro that can do this.
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90 Orc Shaman
13155
It's a joke when a healer can 1 shot a totem. Blizzard is aware of this but keep hiding behind a pole. I just want them to admit it that they messed up.
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90 Human Priest
14650
whereas shamans will drops a totem a macro will auto switch to and kill .2 sec after being dropped as if it didn't happen at all <.< that certainly needs to be addressed.


Blizz broke any macro that can do this.


You can mouseover macro to kill a totem.

If they are not going to fix this totem change, then Shaman need either another instant cast, i.e. something comparable to 100k+ word of glorys, 80k+ bubbles from discs, Chi Wave from Monks, Swiftmend, Something, anything.

As it stands now, Shamans big cooldowns, both defensive and offensive can be either completely prevented, or one shotted, then they have to cast all of their heals, which requires a global to put earth shield on their target, which is dispelled almost instantly.
Edited by Velayn on 2/6/2013 6:14 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
02/06/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Velayn
Shamans big cooldowns, both defensive and offensive can be either completely prevented, or one shotted


Ascendance?

Because Spirit Link totem is tick-upon-drop it provides the vast majority of the benefit instantly, and from that point it matters very little whether or not it is destroyed after that. In fact, many top-end resto shaman have script macros to destroy many of their totems instantly to maximize the benefit from Totemic Restoration because the purpose of the totem drop has already been fulfilled.

Healing Tide Totem gains some of our health to help prevent one shots, and provides some of its benefit upon drop. Whether or not it has enough health to protect it long enough to do its job is a subject worthy of discussion though.

The reason the change went through is because for a large portion of our totems they provided so much of their benefit instantly and there was so little value in having them beyond that initial tick that there was no counterplay to them. That's right - being able to kill them did not matter for too many of the totems for it to be considered counterplay to them.

It was the classic Blizzard explanation. It was always intended to be like this, we just didn't bother fixing it for 7 years.


Part of their explanation was that it was originally like this, that they were changed to not be spells a few expansions back (remembering that at the point in time that they changed it we had 0 cooldown totems,) and that they felt that being able to silence or lockout to prevent totem drops was appropriate now because they're focused around being cooldowns (both large and small) rather than auras.

Perhaps resto does need something to compensate for this change, but re-instating a mechanic that was much too strong to have with the current pvp landscape isn't the answer.

Note: I've always played devil's advocate for this argument because nobody else is going to and I appreciate the position they take even though I disagree with it. I dislike what this change did to Elemental's already-weak survivability, and would like to have it back for Elemental if nothing else.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
4860
Even though I am new I think our totems should really get looked at.

Like why does it take 5 seconds for us to stun?

The way I get around the easy totem thing is to have the gyph. I stopped seeing people trying to kill them when they kill 2 or 3 then I drop one real one to put fakes back out. They tend to stop doing it after a while.

I think we should totem while under silence or have more counters to all the CC now but that's just me.
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90 Human Priest
14650
02/06/2013 07:12 PMPosted by Gistwiki
Shamans big cooldowns, both defensive and offensive can be either completely prevented, or one shotted


Ascendance?

Healing Tide Totem gains some of our health to help prevent one shots, and provides some of its benefit upon drop. Whether or not it has enough health to protect it long enough to do its job is a subject worthy of discussion though.

The reason the change went through is because for a large portion of our totems they provided so much of their benefit instantly and there was so little value in having them beyond that initial tick that there was no counterplay to them. That's right - being able to kill them did not matter for too many of the totems for it to be considered counterplay to them.

It was the classic Blizzard explanation. It was always intended to be like this, we just didn't bother fixing it for 7 years.


Part of their explanation was that it was originally like this, that they were changed to not be spells a few expansions back (remembering that at the point in time that they changed it we had 0 cooldown totems,) and that they felt that being able to silence or lockout to prevent totem drops was appropriate now because they're focused around being cooldowns (both large and small) rather than auras.

Perhaps resto does need something to compensate for this change, but re-instating a mechanic that was much too strong to have with the current pvp landscape isn't the answer.

Note: I've always played devil's advocate for this argument because nobody else is going to and I appreciate the position they take even though I disagree with it. I dislike what this change did to Elemental's already-weak survivability, and would like to have it back for Elemental if nothing else.


Ascendance? here, let me stun you, silence you because you have to spam cast everything, or poly you and wreck your teammates in.

SLT is fine with the changes, yes, killing it does kind of suck for the shaman, but not so much as to need the silence change, the silence change was so much of Healing Tide. The shamans biggest healing cooldown is 40k health, and even healers can instagib it.

If HTT had a big healthpool, nothing would be so bad.

but the fact that a mage can solo a healing shaman is creazy. or a warrior that has cds up, all because one silence and its over.
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90 Draenei Shaman
3655
02/06/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Velayn
You can mouseover macro to kill a totem.


Vastly different than hit button and kill totem macro. You still have to move your mouse to where the totem is then hit your button. It is not instant, it requires your attention, and as Gistwiki said most totems provide most of their benefit on drop. The ones that dont have 10% of your hp.

This being said, totems should have resilience. There should be a difference between a 5 hp totem and a totem with 10% of your hp. Since totems dont have resilience and ARE affected by an enemies pvp power they might as well have 5 hp even though they have 10% of your hp. I believe someone already started a thread on this.

Regardless the issue is the rampant instant cc and your partners peeling. If your partners cant keep peeps off of you once every 45 seconds, then it is their fault. The rampant cc was going to be fixed, but now they've reverted it (UGH) but, with promises to fix it in the future.

Still peeling from your partners will be key to any win moreso than any cc the enemy can throw at you. Even though its annoying and HUGELY punishes mistakes, the team with the best coordination and least mistakes will win.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
19615
02/06/2013 08:29 PMPosted by Velayn
Ascendance? here, let me stun you, silence you because you have to spam cast everything, or poly you and wreck your teammates in.

here, let me trinket

02/06/2013 08:29 PMPosted by Velayn
The shamans biggest healing cooldown is 40k health, and even healers can instagib it.

I think "instagib" is a little generous
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90 Orc Shaman
5480
02/07/2013 07:55 AMPosted by Rude
Ascendance? here, let me stun you, silence you because you have to spam cast everything, or poly you and wreck your teammates in.

here, let me trinket

The shamans biggest healing cooldown is 40k health, and even healers can instagib it.

I think "instagib" is a little generous


Well, I hope you're keeping in mind the fact that totems have 0 Resilience and they suffer from PvP Power.
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90 Human Priest
14650
02/07/2013 07:55 AMPosted by Rude
Ascendance? here, let me stun you, silence you because you have to spam cast everything, or poly you and wreck your teammates in.

here, let me trinket

The shamans biggest healing cooldown is 40k health, and even healers can instagib it.

I think "instagib" is a little generous


Do you even pvp as resto? I'd assume no, since you don't even have 100 arena wins achievement.

You can't keep your trinket forever as a shaman because of blanket silences preventing you from linking or HTT to save your teammates. Yet you can die if you don't trinket the shockwave or the deep, or the full trap if your Priest is cc'd and can't mass dispel it, and that is of course, assuming you run with a Priest in your team.

Instagib is not generous, nearly any class can hit for 40k or sometimes below depending on the shamans health pool in one ability on something that has no resilience such as a totem.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
02/06/2013 08:29 PMPosted by Velayn
SLT is fine with the changes, yes, killing it does kind of suck for the shaman


The benefit of SLT is the health redistribution used to save someone who would otherwise die. If the shaman is positioning himself properly, that happens on the first tick (which happens instantly.) Any other tick after that does very little, as it has already fulfilled its purpose upon the drop. High-end Resto shaman kill it on their own to reduce the cooldown. There is little-no upside to killing SLT at that point.

The silence change was for every totem that provided a large portion of its benefit on the drop, which is just about all of them excluding HTT/HST, which normally requires a few extra ticks to accomplish its purpose. If we want to make the thread about Healing Tide needing more health baseline so that it's actually a meaningful decision to kill rather than a lololol1shotwithamouseover then that's a fine conversation to have. However, as much I never wanted (and still don't want) the silence change, I get the logic behind it.

02/06/2013 08:29 PMPosted by Velayn
but the fact that a mage can solo a healing shaman is creazy. or a warrior that has cds up, all because one silence and its over.


Ermahgherd, the OP classes performing OP feats. Who would've thunk it T_T

02/07/2013 08:28 AMPosted by Velayn
Instagib is not generous, nearly any class can hit for 40k or sometimes below depending on the shamans health pool in one ability on something that has no resilience such as a totem.


When you said healers can instagib it, you were implying that healers have an instant-cast spell that can hit for 40k. I don't know monks as well as I should so I couldn't say for them, but beyond that the only think I can think of that'd actually hit totems for that much as an instant cast coming from a healer is MAYBE holy shock.
Edited by Gistwiki on 2/7/2013 8:39 AM PST
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80 Undead Rogue
3615
02/06/2013 05:34 PMPosted by Tsiou
It's a joke when a healer can 1 shot a totem. Blizzard is aware of this but keep hiding behind a pole. I just want them to admit it that they messed up.
Will never happen since apparently they are above mistakes and know better than we do.

Heavy sarcasm implied in the latter part of that btw.
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