We hate Garrosh for putting War?

100 Draenei Monk
20790
Vyrin logic *If you get power over a goverment you are allowed to commit genocide on people, and it isn't a war crime.*


Please stop. If you don't know what genocide is, that's fine, but don't go throwing it around like that. What happened in Dalaran was not genocide, regardless of if you think it was right or not.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
12990
I really hate these "War in WARcraft" arguments. The "war" doesn't need to be a conflict between the Horde and Alliance, because it's just drawn out and pointless at this point.
Reply Quote
02/05/2013 09:11 PMPosted by Zanuvial
I really hate these "War in WARcraft" arguments. The "war" doesn't need to be a conflict between the Horde and Alliance, because it's just drawn out and pointless at this point.


So the orcs should be okay about living in a desolate desert. Ok.

The Forsaken should let the humans take back lordaeron and kill all of them because they are unnatural.

02/05/2013 09:11 PMPosted by Lena
Vyrin logic *If you get power over a goverment you are allowed to commit genocide on people, and it isn't a war crime.*


Please stop. If you don't know what genocide is, that's fine, but don't go throwing it around like that. What happened in Dalaran was not genocide, regardless of if you think it was right or not.


Ohh sorry it was a purge, well let me look up the Definition of "Purge".

In history, religion, and political science, a purge is the removal of people who are considered undesirable by those in power from a government, from another organization, or from society as a whole. Purges can be peaceful or violent(Also known as Genocide); many will end with the imprisonment or exile of those purged, but in some cases they will simply be removed from office
Edited by Darmonic on 2/5/2013 9:17 PM PST
Reply Quote
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/05/2013 09:06 PMPosted by Darmonic
Vyrin logic *If you get power over a goverment you are allowed to commit genocide on people, and it isn't a war crime.*


There was no genocide. Jaina and Vereesa didn't even KILL anyone who wasn't an active combatant trying to kill THEM.

Do you even know what genocide is aside from "that word I learned in 9th grade history that's really bad?"

In history, religion, and political science, a purge is the removal of people who are considered undesirable by those in power from a government, from another organization, or from society as a whole. Purges can be peaceful or violent(Also known as Genocide); many will end with the imprisonment or exile of those purged, but in some cases they will simply be removed from office


Except in this case, the purge was peaceful. The only violence was when the Sunreavers tried to start killing.

Your definition outright says that it's not genocidal. In fact, the dictionary definition is that it's a purely political move, which this was.

Edit: In fact, I just looked up where you got your definition. You ADDED the "genocide" bit into the quote; it doesn't actually say that.
Edited by Vyrin on 2/5/2013 9:20 PM PST
Reply Quote
02/05/2013 09:18 PMPosted by Vyrin
Vyrin logic *If you get power over a goverment you are allowed to commit genocide on people, and it isn't a war crime.*


There was no genocide. Jaina and Vereesa didn't even KILL anyone who wasn't an active combatant trying to kill THEM.

Do you even know what genocide is aside from "that word I learned in 9th grade history that's really bad?"

In history, religion, and political science, a purge is the removal of people who are considered undesirable by those in power from a government, from another organization, or from society as a whole. Purges can be peaceful or violent(Also known as Genocide); many will end with the imprisonment or exile of those purged, but in some cases they will simply be removed from office


Except in this case, the purge was peaceful. The only violence was when the Sunreavers tried to start killing.


I am sure The Sunreaver leader said "This is our city to Jaina"
Jaina "Not anymore." Her water elemental killed 8 blood elves.

Yes, it wasn't self defense... just go into prison don't resist.
Reply Quote
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/05/2013 09:20 PMPosted by Darmonic
I am sure The Sunreaver leader said "This is our city to Jaina"


Except it wasn't his city. The Sunreavers were always guests of the Kirin Tor.

02/05/2013 09:20 PMPosted by Darmonic
Jaina "Not anymore." Her water elemental killed 8 blood elves.


Who had raised weapons against her.

I'm also waiting to hear your defense as to why you felt the need to edit the definition of "purge" you copy/pasted from Wikipedia.
Edited by Vyrin on 2/5/2013 9:22 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Death Knight
3215
All land is troll land honestly. If the elves don't have the power to defend it they have a right to take it.

Garrosh already said he wanted to build a city to mirror Orgimmar in the heart of Ashenvale.


Really? Might makes right?

Well, now I know you are either a troll, or a very bad man. Either way, I can be done with you. Good night.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Monk
20790

Ohh sorry it was a purge, well let me look up the Definition of "Purge".

In history, religion, and political science, a purge is the removal of people who are considered undesirable by those in power from a government, from another organization, or from society as a whole. Purges can be peaceful or violent(Also known as Genocide); many will end with the imprisonment or exile of those purged, but in some cases they will simply be removed from office


It was a political purge, it had nothing to do with race. There are still many high elves that are enjoying the new, scum-free Dalaran.
Reply Quote
Okay so the Purge of Dalaran was Justice why?

If it was justical this also makes the Purge of Stratholme just as well, if not explain so?

Also Blood elves are not the same race as High elves, Like Ice Trolls are not the same as Jungle Trolls.

All land is troll land honestly. If the elves don't have the power to defend it they have a right to take it.

Garrosh already said he wanted to build a city to mirror Orgimmar in the heart of Ashenvale.


Really? Might makes right?

Well, now I know you are either a troll, or a very bad man. Either way, I can be done with you. Good night.


The Humans are trying to take Lordaeron back, from the actual rightful owners of lordaeron who lived and died for that land so don't go act like only the horde is doing such an act, both sides are taking things.
Edited by Darmonic on 2/5/2013 9:32 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Monk
20790
02/05/2013 09:26 PMPosted by Darmonic
Okay so the Purge of Dalaran was Justice why?


Horde committed an act of war against the Kirin Tor(several in fact) and the Kirin Tor was going to be fighting the horde. Why wouldn't they remove horde from Dalaran? It would make no sense for them to allow them to remain.
Edited by Lena on 2/5/2013 9:28 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
10815
02/05/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Lena
Okay so the Purge of Dalaran was Justice why?


Horde committed an act of war against the Kirin Tor(several in fact) and the Kirin Tor was going to be fighting the horde. Why wouldn't they remove horde from Dalaran? It would make no sense for them to allow them to remain.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
8330
02/05/2013 08:40 PMPosted by Vyrin
No, they haven't.


Off the top of my head, Admiral Rogers gunning down drowning Horde sailors. If we are using Geneva Convention law, which ahs no actual bearing on WoW since war crimes don't exist in WoW, Rogers should have taken them prisoner. Of course she only should have if the Geneva COnvention existed in WoW, which it doesn't.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
8330
02/05/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Lena
Horde committed an act of war against the Kirin Tor(several in fact) and the Kirin Tor was going to be fighting the horde. Why wouldn't they remove horde from Dalaran? It would make no sense for them to allow them to remain.


No they comitted the act against the Alliance. Jaina just strong armed the Horde out of the Kirin Tor because she was never neutral. Jaina broke the Kirin Tor's neutrality long before. She let the Alliance use all kinds of portals, the Night Elves who took the beel first used a portal to get to Darnassus, they couldn't have done so without Kirin Tor approval.

The Purge of Dalaran was a military act by a partisan head of a supposedly neutral organization, which usurped all Horde members of hte council and enforced dictatorial law on a once oligarchic city.

Jaina creates a monopoly on transportation, uses it to help the Alliance, then freaks out when the Horde bypass it. She wasn't doing it for some hgih minded neutrality, she was doing it to cut the Horde off from key resources. It has nothing to do with neutrality in any way, she was never neutral.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Monk
20790
02/05/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Sofa
No, they haven't.


Off the top of my head, Admiral Rogers gunning down drowning Horde sailors. If we are using Geneva Convention law, which ahs no actual bearing on WoW since war crimes don't exist in WoW, Rogers should have taken them prisoner. Of course she only should have if the Geneva COnvention existed in WoW, which it doesn't.


I believe the orcs would have had to show clear signs of surrendering for that to be true. But they didn't they were advancing directly toward the alliance position.

No they comitted the act against the Alliance. Jaina just strong armed the Horde out of the Kirin Tor because she was never neutral.


They killed several Kirin Tor mages including Rhonin and they used Dalaran to steal the Divine Bell. Both acts of war.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
8330
02/05/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Lena
I believe the orcs would have had to show clear signs of surrendering for that to be true. But they didn't they were advancing directly toward the alliance position.


Yes, because people swimming for their lives int he water pose a threat to a towering SKYship. There was no threat it was cold blooded murder. but it may have saved the Alliance a big headache. Stop moralizing it and just accept that inw ar sometimes you forgoe morals for convenience.

Also with the Kirin Tor, Jaina was made leader of a COUNCIL, of which tere were Horde members or at least a member. I don't recall any evidence of the council signing off on the purge. Also, the Kirin Tor backed up the Alliance in theramore BEFORE they had any knowledge of Sunreaver involvement. Whya re the Kirin Tor allwoed to help the Alliance but the Sunreavers cannot help the Horde?

The real answer is that no one can do anything, there simply is. jaina has the pwoer to cast people she doesn't like out, neutrality is irrelevant as an ideal if it isn;t true in practice. Stop preteneding that the Kirin Tor was anything but an Alliance proxy. the Horde were kept there as a fake sign of good will, onyl as long as they remained useful. The Kirin Tor had no problem sacrificing Sunreaver mages tot he Blue Dragonflight during the Nexus War. As soonas your use runs out you are a dead man.

Likewise with Theramore, that was a separate military encounter between two factions, and the Kirin Tor helped the Alliance in theramore. Youa re just mad that the Horde helped themselves, and it was more effective.

At least now the Horde can profit from Sunreaver magic without being watched over by the Alliance puppets at the Kirin tor.

My point is not about justified versus unjustified, it is simply that we should not pretend any neutrality was broken, there was never neutrality and jaina just got pissed the second that the Horde helped themselves to some of that good stuff that she was monopolizing. Mucht he way that the corrupt factory owner calls in the shock troops when a gang of dissatisfied workers breaks his machines that put them out of work. There was no noble ideal in jaina's actions. it was cold and calculated, it was a good move, but it was never for some high mided neutral ideal, it was simply peeling the veneer off of what had always been true. Those Silver Covenant mages couldn't wait to literally feed the Sindorei to the sharks.

Right and wrong is actually irrelevant to this discussion, neither side is acting out of some moral ideal but out of pure self interest, regardless of what they say, their actions speak much louder.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
14890
It is a war crime to arrest a whole racial population of a city because two turned traitor. It is a war crime to torture and unarmed man(a Sunreaver in the underbelly is bring tortured during the Horde side quest and dies). It is a war crime to sanction the killing of unarmed people using another country's forces (Storm Wind solders brought in by Jaina attack and kill cowering elves). Jaina ordered the purge she is responsible as the leader for the actions of the individuals carrying out her orders.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Monk
20790
Yes, because people swimming for their lives int he water pose a threat to a towering SKYship. There was no threat it was cold blooded murder. but it may have saved the Alliance a big headache. Stop moralizing it and just accept that inw ar sometimes you forgoe morals for convenience.


What does the skyship have to do with anything? There were soldiers on the ground. There were other places the orcs could have swam to as well, but they chose to swim directly toward the alliance position and made no sign of surrender. Say whatever you want, but Rogers made the right call to protect her soldiers. If the orcs were screaming out that they surrendered or what not then you'd have a point.

I wasn't talking about neutrality with Dalaran, I'm talking about the horde making acts of war against the Kirin Tor. If you want to argue that Dalaran wasn't neutral and was alliance the whole time then fine, the purge shouldn't have been a surprise then.
Edited by Lena on 2/5/2013 10:15 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]