We hate Garrosh for putting War?

90 Human Warrior
16790
02/05/2013 10:06 PMPosted by Sofa
Yes, because people swimming for their lives int he water pose a threat to a towering SKYship. There was no threat it was cold blooded murder. but it may have saved the Alliance a big headache. Stop moralizing it and just accept that inw ar sometimes you forgoe morals for convenience.


The Orcs do not need weapons to kill Alliance soldiers.
The Orcs adhere to a strict code of honor that preaches "Victory or Death!"
The Orcs made a conscious decision to swim AT the Alliance position, rather than to one of the multiple clear shorelines.
The Orcs were not civilians or Noncombatants, but Orcish Marines.

There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest the Orcs were doing anything but attempting to take the Alliance position. If you believe that the Alliance troops should wait until there's a green fist around their throats before fighting back I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe they took some lessons from the Green Messiah Thrall who had absolutely no problem flying around electrocuting fleeing Alliance soldiers who, unlike the Orcs in your example, were actually trying to get AWAY from him.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8225
02/05/2013 10:14 PMPosted by Lena
Say whatever you want, but Rogers made the right call to protect her soldiers


See youa re assuming that the right call could NEVEr be a war crime, when in fact it was. Shooting soldiers who are de-shipped IS a war crime, just look up the Belgrano incident fromt he Falklands War. margaret Thatcher was given all kinds flak for sinking the Belgrano, but it was the right call to protect her people, her sailors, th ship posed a threat and she sank it and sailros died, Argentine sailors. The right call was a moral grey area, but that doesn't stop it from being the right call.

your argment essentially hinges on the idea that the right call can never be morally questionable, when in war it almost always is.

And to my above, what your post demonstrates is that WE CANNOT APPLY THE SAME LAWS IN AZEROTH AS IN THE REAL WORLD. We are in agreement there. So stop using the word war crime when it doesn't apply. there are no war crimes because there is no law and also if there were a law there are many of loose ends to fill in than when only talking about human vs human.
Edited by Sofa on 2/5/2013 10:20 PM PST
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/05/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Sofa
Off the top of my head, Admiral Rogers gunning down drowning Horde sailors.


"Orcs died at Alliance hands. Must be a war crime."

02/05/2013 09:47 PMPosted by Sofa
No they comitted the act against the Alliance.


Violating Kirin Tor policy to aid an enemy of the Kirin Tor is an act against the Kirin Tor.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
02/05/2013 10:18 PMPosted by Sofa
See youa re assuming that the right call could NEVEr be a war crime, when in fact it was. Shooting soldiers who are de-shipped IS a war crime, just look up the Belgrano incident fromt he Falklands War. margaret Thatcher was given all kinds flak for sinking the Belgrano, but it was the right call to protect her people, her sailors, th ship posed a threat and she sank it and sailros died, Argentine sailors. The right call was a moral grey area, but that doesn't stop it from being the right call.


Then string up Thrall by his ears because he did the exact same !@#$%^- thing.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
02/05/2013 08:57 PMPosted by Makkizz
Most likely because it's not worth having to ship the lumber ALL the way back to Org. Like Darmonic said, there is a huge forest right next door.


If that's your excuse for not having lumber hauled in from elsewhere, then it's not worth having to ship water, ores, food and other resources all the way back to Orgrimmar either. If you cannot afford to haul lumber in, you can't afford to have anything else hauled in either.

The Forest right next door doesn't belong to the orcs either. They should have gotten that hint a long time ago.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8225
02/05/2013 10:19 PMPosted by Vyrin
Violating Kirin Tor policy to aid an enemy of the Kirin Tor is an act against the Kirin Tor.


Kirin Tor policy set by a non-objective leader. My point is that it doesn't actually matter who violated what. in the end the only thing that matters is who comes out victorious. All this talk about idealistic laws and crap is just that, crap. If the Horde won completely there would be no recourse.

IE> The Nuremburg trials only took palce because the Allies won, and no Allied commanders were brought before the tribunal, nor should they have been because defeating a monstrous tyranny was more important than being perfect.

Stop shying away fromt he fact that the Kirin Tor when Jaina took over was and is an Alliance proxy organization. The reason that the Sunreavers were expelled was because they posed a threat tot he Alliance NOT to the Kirin Tor, of which they wer emembers. Thus they posed a threat to Jaina's Alliance centric Kirin tor. The Kirin Tor policy was likewise used to funnel Alliance troops all over the place, and to transport weapons of mass destruction into Alliance hands, even Voljin supported taking the Bell away from the Alliance.

In the end the Horde has benefitted far mroe from this than the Alliance, we now can make use of unrestricted magic from the Sunreavers out in the open. there is no need for secrecy. The Kirin Tor however lost many great mages, none of whom had a problem with their own organization, but simply with the Alliance.

Having a debate abuout technival violations and moral gery areas is irrelevant, what matters is what benefits who? Clearly the Sunreavers out of the Kirin Tor without mixed loyalties benefits the Horde. The Alliance benfits from purging a neutral organization of dissidents, but the Kirin Tor lost many great mages who called dalaran home, and many called it home long befoere this war broke out, ie, kaelthas was in Dalaran when Quel Thalas fell. It doesn't actually matter that the Sunreavers broke Kirin Tor policy, if Jaina wanted them out she could have made wearing red a crime and killed them for that. She found an opportunity to capitolize on a key objective and used it to her advanatge. SImple as that. this constant moralizing is getting stale fast.
Edited by Sofa on 2/5/2013 10:29 PM PST
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/05/2013 10:25 PMPosted by Sofa
Kirin Tor policy set by a non-objective leader.


That the Kirin Tor chose to be their leader.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8225
02/05/2013 10:27 PMPosted by Vyrin
That the Kirin Tor chose to be their leader.

So?

i can also make one line replies that contribute nothing.
Edited by Sofa on 2/5/2013 10:30 PM PST
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90 Orc Warlock
11315
Stop shying away fromt he fact that the Kirin Tor when Jaina took over was and is an Alliance proxy organization. The reason that the Sunreavers were expelled was because they posed a threat tot he Alliance NOT to the Kirin Tor, of which they wer emembers


The Sunreavers were aiding Garrosh, who has declared a war of genocide against all non-Horde races.

Ergo yes, they were a threat to the Kirin Tor.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
02/05/2013 10:25 PMPosted by Sofa
Stop shying away fromt he fact that the Kirin Tor when Jaina took over was and is an Alliance proxy organization. The reason that the Sunreavers were expelled was because they posed a threat tot he Alliance NOT to the Kirin Tor, of which they wer emembers. Thus they posed a threat to Jaina's Alliance centric Kirin tor. The Kirin Tor policy was likewise used to funnel Alliance troops all over the place, and to transport weapons of mass destruction into Alliance hands, even Voljin supported taking the Bell away from the Alliance.


Oh that's BS and you know it.

The Horde has been antagonizing the Kirin Tor since Vanilla, and this is after years of abuse at their hands during the First & Second wars. The Horde should be bending over backwards to keep those relationships healthy and instead they pull !@#$ like Ambermill and Nethergarde and vaporizing Rhonin.

Just because an organization has the gall to tell the Horde to piss off and sides with the faction that isn't constantly trying to murder them and take over the world doesn't mean they're some sort of Alliance puppet state. Jaina has been VERY explicit that she doesn't answer to Varian and that Dalaran is it's own sovereign nation.

And FYI, the Sunreavers posed a threat to the ENTIRE WORLD, Kirin Tor included. That was kind of obvious after they helped smuggle WMDs to a genocidal dictator, and then attacked the Kirin Tor law enforcement that showed up to arrest them.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
02/05/2013 10:06 PMPosted by Sofa
Yes, because people swimming for their lives int he water pose a threat to a towering SKYship. There was no threat it was cold blooded murder. but it may have saved the Alliance a big headache. Stop moralizing it and just accept that inw ar sometimes you forgoe morals for convenience.


The orcs were swimming right at the Alliance soldiers on the ground when they had several other places to swim to. Orcs are also known to be physically stronger than humans and are dangerous even bare handed, and as far as anyone knows, they take the 'Victory of Death!' motto very seriously. Unless an orc is openly showing he wants to surrender, you treat that orc as an armed enemy, in which case you kill him ASAP. Otherwise you are making a very foolish move. To think that the orc sailors would have been surrendering is, bluntly, foolish. You have to assume that they take the Horde motto to heart and live to uphold it. Which means it is literally 'victory or death'. There isn't any other option.

02/05/2013 10:14 PMPosted by Nathreim
It is a war crime to arrest a whole racial population of a city because two turned traitor. It is a war crime to torture and unarmed man(a Sunreaver in the underbelly is bring tortured during the Horde side quest and dies). It is a war crime to sanction the killing of unarmed people using another country's forces (Storm Wind solders brought in by Jaina attack and kill cowering elves). Jaina ordered the purge she is responsible as the leader for the actions of the individuals carrying out her orders.


The racial population in this incident is irrelevant. She had an organization, the Sunreavers, arrested. She did not arrest people because of their race. That's a cheap card to play calling racism. The only elves that are killed are those who resist (excluding any yellow flagged NPCs that are cowering). I can also see why she would have brought in Stormwind troops. It would probably have been hard for the Kirin Tor and the guards to arrest the Sunreavers(conflict of interest?), so on her own authority, she allowed the Silver Covenant and mercenaries (us players) to do the deed with a little SW help. There's nothing wrong or illegal in that.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8225
The Sunreavers were aiding Garrosh, who has declared a war of genocide against all non-Horde races.

Ergo yes, they were a threat to the Kirin Tor.


Garrosh only stated his intent for genocide to Horde leaders after Theramore. The Kirin Tor were never targetted directly. Even in this incident noone from the Kirin Tor was harmed, they simply bypassed a system pof portal guarding that was used to funnel resources and weapons to the Alliance. Thus we can now assume that Alliance interests and Kirin Tor interests are inseparable so the very separation of them semantically is irrelevant, we might as well not evenr ecognize them as a separate organization but a wing of the Alliance. That is my point, the Kirin Tor is threatened because it is not neutral, because it is a part of the Alliance.

my point is not about justicification or who is right who is wrong, but simply stating that no neutrality was broken, simply that it was in the interest of the Alliance to get rid of the Sunreavers from Dalaran. jaina was simply mad that her monopolization of power had backfired, and someone else was getting a piece of the pie. When she found out that King Wrynn was about to bring th e Sindorei into the Alliance she couldn't swallow her pride and chastised her own King. Thus Jaina also hindered the Alliance in isolating a possible ally with key strategic geography in the eastern Kingdoms.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
02/05/2013 10:18 PMPosted by Sofa
Shooting soldiers who are de-shipped IS a war crime,


NO IT IS NOT!. Not in Azeroth. Stop trying to inflict modern morality and law in WoW. It doesn't belong and it's getting real tiring listening to you yammering at soldiers/sailors being killed in a time of war. The Alliance had every right to believe those swimmers were a clear and present military threat and needed to be dealt with -now- rather when they'd reached the shore and started to strangle Alliance soldiers. In the water they are slow and defenseless. A perfect target. I'd have shot them too if it came to that. There's no way in hell I'd allow a enemy that outweighs me 2-3 times in sheer muscle, bulk and height get close enough to attack me.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
02/05/2013 10:25 PMPosted by Sofa
Stop shying away fromt he fact that the Kirin Tor when Jaina took over was and is an Alliance proxy organization. The reason that the Sunreavers were expelled was because they posed a threat tot he Alliance NOT to the Kirin Tor, of which they wer emembers. Thus they posed a threat to Jaina's Alliance centric Kirin tor. The Kirin Tor policy was likewise used to funnel Alliance troops all over the place, and to transport weapons of mass destruction into Alliance hands, even Voljin supported taking the Bell away from the Alliance.


You're incorrect. The Sunreavers would have been left alone if they hadn't violated official Kirin Tor policy and aided the Horde in making arcane weapons and in using Dalaran as a waypoint to help the Horde attack Alliance cities. Until the Sunreavers had been caught twice at it, they were left in Dal.

Edit: I'd like to remind you of the scene where Varian sends Anduin with a request to have the Sunreavers expelled. Jaina flat out refused it because she wanted them to work together. She was following Rhonin's dream and it wasn't until the Sunreavers used Dalaran to bypass the portal security she'd set up around Darnassus, that she realized she'd been stabbed in the back again by the Sunreavers and the Horde.

And her first reaction is to have them leave or be arrested. She chose to have them arrested and only those who resisted arrest were killed. The rest were imprisoned to be interrogated when there was time.
Edited by Kynrind on 2/5/2013 10:58 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8225
02/05/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Kynrind
The racial population in this incident is irrelevant. She had an organization, the Sunreavers, arrested. She did not arrest people because of their race. That's a cheap card to play calling racism. The only elves that are killed are those who resist (excluding any yellow flagged NPCs that are cowering). I can also see why she would have brought in Stormwind troops. It would probably have been hard for the Kirin Tor and the guards to arrest the Sunreavers(conflict of interest?), so on her own authority, she allowed the Silver Covenant and mercenaries (us players) to do the deed with a little SW help. There's nothing wrong or illegal in that.


There is somethign wrong because if Jaina couldn't do it on her own it meant that power was more balanced in the Kirin Tor, she calls in the Stromwind Troops to consolidate her own power and destroy and resistance. She uses a clearly politically aligned army to consolidate her power. The Kirin Tor had been helping the Alliance for ages yet as soon as the Sunreavers help the Horde Jaina jumps on the opportunity to seize total power. If she couldn't do it on her own it meant she didn't yet weild total power, she needed a mercenary revolutionary army to achieve her Golden Dawn. how long before they start carrying little red Toems in dalaran?

Oh and only the ones who resist are killed? that's what Stalin said, and what every power hungry fiend says, as long as you obey totally and follow me I won't kill you. Stary at all and you are dead because i wield all of the power now.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12070
Two people break the law so every Sunreaver is guilty? Thats logical and grounded in reason.....
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8225
02/05/2013 10:50 PMPosted by Kynrind
you're incorrect. The Sunreavers would have been left alone if they hadn't violated official Kirin Tor policy and aided the Horde in making arcane weapons and in using Dalaran as a waypoint to help the Horde attack Alliance cities. Until the Sunreavers had been caught twice at it, they were left in Dal.


So it wasn't against Kirin Tor policy for the Night Elves to use a portal to funnel the Bell into Darnassus. If jaina had ocntrol over all the waypoints how could she not have known that one was being used to help the Alliance? By your logic jaina should be purged from the Kirin Tor, uness of course we stop and think and realize that there is no official explanation any more than there is for any purge. jaina capitolized on a great opportunity to consolidate power, she unleashed bloodthristy high elves who she knew were ready to kill every Blood Elf there. this was clearly a pre-planned event, used to consolidate power totally and use the Kirin Tor as an arm of the Alliance without any opposition.

the technical explanation is actually irrelevant, EVERY power hungry dictator gives a technival reason for killing people. Oh the Jews are out to get us, better purge em. Oh the Gypsies are stealing your money and your children, better burn em. It's always the same,a nd it is never for the reason given.
Edited by Sofa on 2/5/2013 10:55 PM PST
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/05/2013 10:51 PMPosted by Nathreim
Two people break the law so every Sunreaver is guilty? Thats logical and grounded in reason.....


Several people in the Sunreavers delivered a weapon of mass destruction into the hands of Garrosh and the Sunreavers refused to expel them, or even assist in finding out who did it. As a result, ALL of them were suspect.

If you have a list of 500 people, one of which is going to set a nuclear bomb off in New York but you don't know exactly who, you'll still arrest all 500 because you can't take the risk.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8225
Several people in the Sunreavers delivered a weapon of mass destruction into the hands of Garrosh and the Sunreavers refused to expel them, or even assist in finding out who did it. As a result, ALL of them were suspect.

If you have a list of 500 people, one of which is going to set a nuclear bomb off in New York but you don't know exactly who, you'll still arrest all 500 because you can't take the risk.


And what if the UN gave a nuclear weapon to let's say canada, but refused to allow France to have one. Un resources are used, the resources of a neutral organization to arm one side, but then the UN disbars anyone else from having this resource, so let's say france, uses the same resources to take back that weapons and ENSURE THEIR SAFETY.

if the UN supported only one country then they would not be neutral, so yes jaina had every reason to attack the Sunreavers because they were in the way of her Alliance centric plans for the Kirin Tor, to monopolize all arcane transportation and to funnel weapons of mass destruction to the Alliance,a s she did.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/05/2013 10:58 PMPosted by Sofa
And what if the UN gave a nuclear weapon to let's say canada, but refused to allow France to have one. Un resources are used, the resources of a neutral organization to arm one side, but then the UN disbars anyone else from having this resource, so let's say france, uses the same resources to take back that weapons and ENSURE THEIR SAFETY.


If the UN had declared France to be a rogue state and given the weapon to Canada beause they knew the Canadians wouldn't use it while France had a record of deploying it on civilian targets, I'd say that they're still neutral but anti-France. Dalaran didn't take action directly against the Horde here. Claiming that it's a sign that they were never neutral is like saying they were never neutral because they let Alliance pass freely through their borders back in WotLK.
Edited by Vyrin on 2/5/2013 11:08 PM PST
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