We hate Garrosh for putting War?

100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
02/05/2013 10:51 PMPosted by Sofa
The racial population in this incident is irrelevant. She had an organization, the Sunreavers, arrested. She did not arrest people because of their race. That's a cheap card to play calling racism. The only elves that are killed are those who resist (excluding any yellow flagged NPCs that are cowering). I can also see why she would have brought in Stormwind troops. It would probably have been hard for the Kirin Tor and the guards to arrest the Sunreavers(conflict of interest?), so on her own authority, she allowed the Silver Covenant and mercenaries (us players) to do the deed with a little SW help. There's nothing wrong or illegal in that.


There is somethign wrong because if Jaina couldn't do it on her own it meant that power was more balanced in the Kirin Tor, she calls in the Stromwind Troops to consolidate her own power and destroy and resistance. She uses a clearly politically aligned army to consolidate her power. The Kirin Tor had been helping the Alliance for ages yet as soon as the Sunreavers help the Horde Jaina jumps on the opportunity to seize total power. If she couldn't do it on her own it meant she didn't yet weild total power, she needed a mercenary revolutionary army to achieve her Golden Dawn. how long before they start carrying little red Toems in dalaran?

Oh and only the ones who resist are killed? that's what Stalin said, and what every power hungry fiend says, as long as you obey totally and follow me I won't kill you. Stary at all and you are dead because i wield all of the power now.


Or more likely, there would be Sunreaver sympathizers in the Kirin tor, so she brought in outsiders who would not be swayed by any conflicting loyalties to arrest the Sunreavers. A reasonable thing to do. They were being legally arrested. Some resisted. Guess what happens when you resist arrest in real life? You get the crap beaten out of you if that's what it takes to subdue you. Or you are killed. We were only given the option of killing the NPCs and aside from the guards she killed around Aethus, Jaina did not kill anyone else. She teleported them all to the Violet hold.

Jaina did not immediately jump on the opportunity to seize total power. I'm not sure where you are getting that from unless you're looking very hard to find what she did was wrong and paint her in the worst possible light. You want her to be wrong and evil for what she did, so you are starting to twist facts to support your viewpoint. All she did was to deal with a betrayal and a possible threat to the security of the city and to other Alliance cities.

02/05/2013 10:51 PMPosted by Nathreim
Two people break the law so every Sunreaver is guilty? Thats logical and grounded in reason.....


Considering the damage just two known people did to Theramore and Darnassus (stealing a known dangerous arcane device), it's safe and accurate to assume that there are more Sunreavers helping or at least sympathetic to the Horde. They had to be taken into custody as soon as possible.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
14890
Two people break the law so every Sunreaver is guilty? Thats logical and grounded in reason.....


Several people in the Sunreavers delivered a weapon of mass destruction into the hands of Garrosh and the Sunreavers refused to expel them, or even assist in finding out who did it. As a result, ALL of them were suspect.

If you have a list of 500 people, one of which is going to set a nuclear bomb off in New York but you don't know exactly who, you'll still arrest all 500 because you can't take the risk.


Aethas didnt even get a chance the moment Jaina found out she said they all must leave when he tried to argue she ordered the purge. Shouldn't Jaina have done and investigation after becoming the leader of the Kirin Tor? She knew first hand that there were bad elements yet she did nothing. And who leaves such an artifact in an unlocked room with one guard who isnt even watching the damn thing?

You cant arrest and persecute a racial population because a handful break the law it is racist and a crime against sentient beings. The Alliance believe in justice that was not justice for all not some.

The nuke anology is wrong the Sunreavers stole it but they didn't keep or had plans to use it. The bell is not a weapon of mass destruction it would make the orcs stronger but they would be unthinking brutes easier to kill.

You want to point fingers point it where it belongs at Garrosh.
Edited by Nathreim on 2/5/2013 11:22 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
So it wasn't against Kirin Tor policy for the Night Elves to use a portal to funnel the Bell into Darnassus. If jaina had ocntrol over all the waypoints how could she not have known that one was being used to help the Alliance? By your logic jaina should be purged from the Kirin Tor, uness of course we stop and think and realize that there is no official explanation any more than there is for any purge. jaina capitolized on a great opportunity to consolidate power, she unleashed bloodthristy high elves who she knew were ready to kill every Blood Elf there. this was clearly a pre-planned event, used to consolidate power totally and use the Kirin Tor as an arm of the Alliance without any opposition.

the technical explanation is actually irrelevant, EVERY power hungry dictator gives a technival reason for killing people. Oh the Jews are out to get us, better purge em. Oh the Gypsies are stealing your money and your children, better burn em. It's always the same,a nd it is never for the reason given.


As far as I know, the Night elves teleported the Belle directly to Darnassus. They did not use Kirrin Tor mages, but their own. Jaina helped set up wards after to keep out portals. The offocial policy of the Kirin Tor was to help the Allaince defend it's cities and to keep any and all arcane devices out of the Horde's hands. for the safty of the world. After Theramore and Northwatch, it's clear that Garrosh and the Horde will use anything as a weapon. To think that the Kirin Tor would not help the Kaldorei protect the Bell is foolish.

First off, Jaina isn't a power hungry dictator. She isn't showing any signs that is what she wants. The claim you've just made is one made up by you because it seems you want Jaina to be a villain. You want her to be evil and a power mad dictator when that's the farthest thing from the truth.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20725
02/05/2013 10:51 PMPosted by Nathreim
Two people break the law so every Sunreaver is guilty? Thats logical and grounded in reason.....


If there even were 2 Sunreavers at all, there may have been 0. So the Alliance reaction is "Let's kill all the shopkeepers!".

Thaelen Songweaver, Rhonin's personal choice to go to Theramore, betrayed the Sunreavers and was kicked out of them for messing with gate defenses. It was implied he had something to do with making the manabomb.

Later Garrosh's guards say the Sunreavers "are risking their neutrality opening a portal from Dalaran to Darnassus"...but the portal openers in game are Silvermoon and Reliquary agents.
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Honestly the only people that are arguing with us are Alliance players that can't accept that they are the Good guys, both sides have there good and there bad you guys are pointing your fingers and Sylvanas and Garrosh, but the moment we point at your new "Dark" lead we are wrong and have no idea what we are talking about... honestly it is infuriating talking to alliance players because their mind set is they are the "good guys"
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
14890
02/05/2013 11:26 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
Thaelen Songweaver


I hate him so damn much he better be a boss in the org raid.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
3290


It's not. The Blood Elves were actively taking up arms against Dalaran and its government and doing everything they could to violate its policies.

It's no different than any country arresting members of a group in support of an enemy of the state.

It was neutral at the pleasure of Dalaran's government, and it was Dalaran's government that decided that the Horde was not welcome anymore.

Only if he conquered the city. Garrosh is not a member of Shattrath's government and hence has no power to do so.


Vyrin logic *If you get power over a goverment you are allowed to commit genocide on people, and it isn't a war crime.*

I am pretty sure the leaders of those african countries are the ones commiting genocide and it is still counted as genocide by other countries even if they are the leader of the country.

If you argue that that is false then I guess we had to right to stop Hitler since it was his country and he could do what he wanted with it to the people inside of it.

Oh wait.
id like to know what the civilian populations of the various races want. how do they feel about the war? how do the Nelves feel about trade? how do the forsaken feel about plague? how do worgen feel about anything... same for draeinie?

edit: why are the two most technologicaly advanced races on the planet goblins/gnomes(draenei got a pass by alien intervention) seccond fiddle to orcs and humans?


Also for some reason the Forsaken seems more intelligent then normal humans...??


.....at no point did proudmoore commit genocide against the blood elves. She ARRESTED them, as in she took them into custody for questioning. The only ones who were killed were those who drew arms against those trying to arrest them.
Edited by Earthbreaka on 2/5/2013 11:31 PM PST
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Vyrin logic *If you get power over a goverment you are allowed to commit genocide on people, and it isn't a war crime.*

I am pretty sure the leaders of those african countries are the ones commiting genocide and it is still counted as genocide by other countries even if they are the leader of the country.

If you argue that that is false then I guess we had to right to stop Hitler since it was his country and he could do what he wanted with it to the people inside of it.

Oh wait.


Also for some reason the Forsaken seems more intelligent then normal humans...??


.....at no point did proudmoore commit genocide against the blood elves. She ARRESTED them, as in she took them into custody for questioning. The only ones who were killed were those who drew arms against those trying to arrest them.


She arrested them for helping the horde, when the Kirin tor helps the Alliance all the time.... #neturalfactionmy@#$
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
02/05/2013 11:21 PMPosted by Nathreim
You cant arrest and persecute a racial population because a handful break the law it is racist and a crime against sentient beings. The Alliance believe in justice that was not justice for all not some.


Will you please stop saying this crap? It's not against the law to be racist in Azeroth. There are no laws anywhere. It's not a crime against a sentient being either. And the justice the Alliance believes in isn't like ours. They do not have the law code we do and -NONE- of the rights we do. There's no freedom of speech, no right to a fair and speedy trial, no protections against persecution. It's a fairly normal medieval style of governance and use of authority. What makes it unusual is that so many of the Alliance leaders are so even handed in their authority and power. They do not abuse it.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
If there even were 2 Sunreavers at all, there may have been 0. So the Alliance reaction is "Let's kill all the shopkeepers!".


Next time you get pulled over, jump the police officer who walks up to your car.

Be sure to tell him in detail how because you're innocent you have the right to violently resist civil arrest and see where that gets you.

02/05/2013 11:31 PMPosted by Darmonic
She arrested them for helping the horde, when the Kirin tor helps the Alliance all the time.... #neturalfactionmy@#$


She arrested them for being implicit in the smuggling of WMDs to a faction with a open mandate of conquest and genocide. #youcannotintolore
Edited by Turagent on 2/5/2013 11:34 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Shaman
3290
02/05/2013 11:21 PMPosted by Nathreim


Several people in the Sunreavers delivered a weapon of mass destruction into the hands of Garrosh and the Sunreavers refused to expel them, or even assist in finding out who did it. As a result, ALL of them were suspect.

If you have a list of 500 people, one of which is going to set a nuclear bomb off in New York but you don't know exactly who, you'll still arrest all 500 because you can't take the risk.


Aethas didnt even get a chance the moment Jaina found out she said they all must leave when he tried to argue she ordered the purge. Shouldn't Jaina have done and investigation after becoming the leader of the Kirin Tor? She knew first hand that there were bad elements yet she did nothing. And who leaves such an artifact in an unlocked room with one guard who isnt even watching the damn thing?

You cant arrest and persecute a racial population because a handful break the law it is racist and a crime against sentient beings. The Alliance believe in justice that was not justice for all not some.

The nuke anology is wrong the Sunreavers stole it but they didn't keep or had plans to use it. The bell is not a weapon of mass destruction it would make the orcs stronger but they would be unthinking brutes easier to kill.

You want to point fingers point it where it belongs at Garrosh.


The sunreavers are a political faction, not just a race.

You can take people in for questioning if you don't know whose done something, but you know they are part of an organization. You can also kill people if they try to kill you.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
02/05/2013 11:31 PMPosted by Darmonic
She arrested them for helping the horde, when the Kirin tor helps the Alliance all the time.... #neturalfactionmy@#$


Neutral in that it was a defensive neutral. The Kirin Tor were not helping the Alliance attack the Horde. All they were doing was helping to defend cities and to protect dangerous artifacts that the Horde should not get it's hands on.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
3290
02/05/2013 10:51 PMPosted by Nathreim
Two people break the law so every Sunreaver is guilty? Thats logical and grounded in reason.....


two people broke the law, with likely reason to believe that more did, so every sunreaver is a suspect.

Medieval times, you can detain people for suspicion, and then find out who did it while there is no chance for whoever did it to do it again.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/05/2013 11:21 PMPosted by Nathreim
Aethas didnt even get a chance the moment Jaina found out she said they all must leave when he tried to argue she ordered the purge.


He didn't say "Let's not be too hasty, we'll try and find who did it." He didn't say "Jaina, why are you upset?" He said "I've done nothing" in the most arrogant way possible and then denied Jaina's authority of Dalaran's affairs.

He's a moron.

02/05/2013 11:21 PMPosted by Nathreim
You cant arrest and persecute a racial population because a handful break the law it is racist and a crime against sentient beings. The Alliance believe in justice that was not justice for all not some.


She didn't prosecute a racial population. She prosecuted a POLITICAL organization. The Sunreavers weren't targeted because it had lots of Blood Elves, it was targeted because it was a subversive organization in the Kirin Tor.

02/05/2013 11:21 PMPosted by Nathreim
The nuke anology is wrong the Sunreavers stole it but they didn't keep or had plans to use it. The bell is not a weapon of mass destruction it would make the orcs stronger but they would be unthinking brutes easier to kill.


They gave it to someone who would. Do you think that Iran would get off scot-free if they gave a nuke to terrorists?

If there even were 2 Sunreavers at all, there may have been 0. So the Alliance reaction is "Let's kill all the shopkeepers!".


Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

The shopkeepers were among those raising arms against the Kirin Tor.

02/05/2013 11:26 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
Later Garrosh's guards say the Sunreavers "are risking their neutrality opening a portal from Dalaran to Darnassus"...but the portal openers in game are Silvermoon and Reliquary agents.


Routed through Dalaran, and the portal is labeled "Sunreaver portal."

I love how there are Horde fanboys STILL insisting that the Sunreavers are innocent despite multiple sources including the Blood Elves themselves saying that they're guilty.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/05/2013 11:26 PMPosted by Darmonic
Honestly the only people that are arguing with us are Alliance players that can't accept that they are the Good guys, both sides have there good and there bad you guys are pointing your fingers and Sylvanas and Garrosh, but the moment we point at your new "Dark" lead we are wrong and have no idea what we are talking about... honestly it is infuriating talking to alliance players because their mind set is they are the "good guys"


This war plot has really done quite a bit to demonstrate how self-deluded Horde fans are.

The Horde is, as an organization, actively seeking genocide against the Alliance and since Vanilla has included freaking undead National Socialist analogues and yet they still insist that the factions are "grey" and that the Horde is "just as good" as the Alliance.

What exactly does the Horde have to do to get you to say "Yeah, the Horde on the whole is pretty evil."

My guess is that they could do absolutely anything and you'd still rush to their defense.
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90 Night Elf Mage
8710
02/05/2013 10:33 PMPosted by Kurze
who has declared a war of genocide


Bah, people need to stop spewing this garbage around. Sure Garrosh wants to destroy the Alliance. But in no instance has he said he wanted to exterminate the alliance races. And in no way did he walk up to Varian and announce on TV his "genocidal" intentions.

The Kirin tor broke its neutrality when it aided Theramore. They should have transitions to Alliance then, but Blizzard just wanted to make Jaina even more of a flip flopping emotional wreck.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
3290
@Azurara
In Tides of War he declared he must kill every single member of the alliance, or something along those lines, in order to achieve victory

I believe the orcs would have had to show clear signs of surrendering for that to be true. But they didn't they were advancing directly toward the alliance position.


Yes, because people swimming for their lives int he water pose a threat to a towering SKYship. There was no threat it was cold blooded murder. but it may have saved the Alliance a big headache. Stop moralizing it and just accept that inw ar sometimes you forgoe morals for convenience.

Also with the Kirin Tor, Jaina was made leader of a COUNCIL, of which tere were Horde members or at least a member. I don't recall any evidence of the council signing off on the purge. Also, the Kirin Tor backed up the Alliance in theramore BEFORE they had any knowledge of Sunreaver involvement. Whya re the Kirin Tor allwoed to help the Alliance but the Sunreavers cannot help the Horde?

The real answer is that no one can do anything, there simply is. jaina has the pwoer to cast people she doesn't like out, neutrality is irrelevant as an ideal if it isn;t true in practice. Stop preteneding that the Kirin Tor was anything but an Alliance proxy. the Horde were kept there as a fake sign of good will, onyl as long as they remained useful. The Kirin Tor had no problem sacrificing Sunreaver mages tot he Blue Dragonflight during the Nexus War. As soonas your use runs out you are a dead man.

Likewise with Theramore, that was a separate military encounter between two factions, and the Kirin Tor helped the Alliance in theramore. Youa re just mad that the Horde helped themselves, and it was more effective.

At least now the Horde can profit from Sunreaver magic without being watched over by the Alliance puppets at the Kirin tor.

My point is not about justified versus unjustified, it is simply that we should not pretend any neutrality was broken, there was never neutrality and jaina just got pissed the second that the Horde helped themselves to some of that good stuff that she was monopolizing. Mucht he way that the corrupt factory owner calls in the shock troops when a gang of dissatisfied workers breaks his machines that put them out of work. There was no noble ideal in jaina's actions. it was cold and calculated, it was a good move, but it was never for some high mided neutral ideal, it was simply peeling the veneer off of what had always been true. Those Silver Covenant mages couldn't wait to literally feed the Sindorei to the sharks.

Right and wrong is actually irrelevant to this discussion, neither side is acting out of some moral ideal but out of pure self interest, regardless of what they say, their actions speak much louder.


Smart guy they ment the troops on the ground not the airship.

Also Jaina took the role that Antonidas had previously, which gives her absolute control in city emergencies.
Edited by Earthbreaka on 2/5/2013 11:45 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
14890
Will you please stop saying this crap? It's not against the law to be racist in Azeroth. There are no laws anywhere. It's not a crime against a sentient being either. And the justice the Alliance believes in isn't like ours. They do not have the law code we do and -NONE- of the rights we do. There's no freedom of speech, no right to a fair and speedy trial, no protections against persecution. It's a fairly normal medieval style of governance and use of authority. What makes it unusual is that so many of the Alliance leaders are so even handed in their authority and power. They do not abuse it.


Well in that case genocide is okay since like you said they don't have the same laws or ideals of Justice as we do Garrosh will be thrilled.

The Alliance is based on much of the ideals of western civilization including due process. Orgrim had a trial after his capture as well as Tirion for what the Alliance saw as treason.
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90 Orc Warlock
0
Two people break the law so every Sunreaver is guilty? Thats logical and grounded in reason.....


If there even were 2 Sunreavers at all, there may have been 0.


A Sunreaver opens the portal from Domination Point to Darnassus.

More Sunreavers hold the arcane bubble around Falyr Siverthorne closed outside Darnassus.

Aethas himself was helping research the Sha.

The Sunreavers were involved. Period.

But in no instance has he said he wanted to exterminate the alliance races.


I would say "go read Tides of War" but frankly nobody should ever be subjected to that book.
Edited by Kurze on 2/5/2013 11:48 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Mage
8710
02/05/2013 11:46 PMPosted by Kurze
Aethas himself was helping research the Sha.


Aethas that guy that was preaching that Silvermoon should leave the horde. Yeah sounds like a horde sympathizer.
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