What Ilvl is required for TOT Normal?

90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
02/04/2013 03:55 PMPosted by Whitebunny
No, I said that they are not the best players, but this doesn't mean that they don't have potential to be great players if they put more time and effort into it.


And I'm saying this isn't true, assuming they cannot progress in normal modes. You used to have to grind out gear but now the game just gives it to you, so that concern is right out, and doing research like "looking up how to play your guy" takes like 20 minutes. Raiding for months and failing to go places while not doing an hour's worth of reading up on their guy doesn't indicate that they have the potential for greatness if they just put forth the effort.
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90 Orc Warlock
13430
My group raids Tuesday and Thursday from 6-9PM and we're 7/17HM, plus a 5% wipe on Garalon. I agree that he's using casual in the sense that they're just not heavy progression minded. However, then what's the big problem with the lack of progression?

You have to balance the expectations you place on your raiders with the expectations of your progress. If you have a laid back, relaxed atmosphere that doesn't place a large emphasis on performance, then you can't expect to down as much content as another group that is more serious.

There's already been a large discussion about the large jump to 502 for 5.2 LFR. The basis is something along the lines of Blizzard wanting the players to actually see their characters get more powerful throughout a tier. If it were too close to the level of 5.0 gear, there supposedly wouldn't be a large enough difference between T14 and T15.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
02/04/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Zakigga
I agree that he's using casual in the sense that they're just not heavy progression minded.


Sure, but he's also saying "oh, and by the way, if we wanted to we would be excellent players, we just don't feel like it".

Which, well, yeah.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9355
@Mahourai
Gear is not just given to you. Our tank had 2 450 pieces for many months. She still has one. You still have to put in time to get that "free" gear.

All I have to go on is how long I spend familiarizing myself with my character and boss mechanics vs. how much time the people I know spend. I know that the time and effort I spend is far greater than the time spent by my average raider. I do not think the difference in performance is coincidental. But we do have a former hardcore raider with us who I know goes to greater lengths than me. I won't, for example, sim my gear. And my keybindings are terrible and I have yet to take the time to fix them, while his keybindings are perfectly thought out.
Edited by Whitebunny on 2/4/2013 4:41 PM PST
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
Gear is not just given to you. Our tank had 2 450 pieces for many months. She still has one. You still have to put in time to get that "free" gear.
Compared to how it used to be it is.

02/04/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Whitebunny
I won't, for example, sim my gear
This takes about 2 minutes, and makes a world of difference. Not doing that is just plain lazy. Why go through what you say is "so much time and effort" when you leave out other very important things. Your time is mostly wasted where you would make a huge difference by adding in an extra 2 minutes a week on a sim.
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90 Orc Warlock
13430
Looking back more closely at the OP, I don't really get it.

02/03/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Çlassic
With 5.2 coming along, does that mean that my guild has to stop raiding and start doing LFR? or can we hop into ToT Normal with an average ilvl of 484 and low end DPS of 55-65k?


This in particular. Do you mean, should you spend your raid time doing LFR as a group? I mean, for a group of your level, you really should be spending time out of raid running LFR to get supplemental gear. I hate to point it out but an average ilvl of 484 is something you can get this tier just from LFR and valor gear. Hence the 480 requirement for 5.2 LFR.

It seems Blizzard is aiming Normals at groups that are looking for a moderate challenge, groups capable of performing well with their class and communicating well with each other. This is, in part, because of the existence of LFR. I don't know what to tell you for now other than either be content with your progress, push your raiders to perform better, or hope for a design change with respect to Normal tuning next expansion.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9355
I won't, for example, sim my gear
This takes about 2 minutes, and makes a world of difference. Not doing that is just plain lazy. Why go through what you say is "so much time and effort" when you leave out other very important things. Your time is mostly wasted where you would make a huge difference by adding in an extra 2 minutes a week on a sim.
I never said "so much time and effort". More than others doesn't mean "so much". You're right, I'm sure, I should do it. But that's just where I've drawn the line on how casual-serious I'm going to be about the game. Probably if I dps'ed more and especially if I had a performance problem, then I would do it. But casual players draw the line in all different places. Some won't do lfr or cap valor every week. Some won't look on more than one site about about their class. Some will not watch videos before raid. And especially when it comes to things that we don't enjoy doing, we'll tend to decide not to do them. We play the game for enjoyment after all.
Edited by Whitebunny on 2/4/2013 7:17 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
6780
Looking back more closely at the OP, I don't really get it.

With 5.2 coming along, does that mean that my guild has to stop raiding and start doing LFR? or can we hop into ToT Normal with an average ilvl of 484 and low end DPS of 55-65k?


This in particular. Do you mean, should you spend your raid time doing LFR as a group? I mean, for a group of your level, you really should be spending time out of raid running LFR to get supplemental gear. I hate to point it out but an average ilvl of 484 is something you can get this tier just from LFR and valor gear. Hence the 480 requirement for 5.2 LFR.

It seems Blizzard is aiming Normals at groups that are looking for a moderate challenge, groups capable of performing well with their class and communicating well with each other. This is, in part, because of the existence of LFR. I don't know what to tell you for now other than either be content with your progress, push your raiders to perform better, or hope for a design change with respect to Normal tuning next expansion.


I am in no way saying we suck at what we do. But having a raid team in a casual guild makes it a bit slow. Our rules are relaxed and raiding on a low pop server has its drawbacks.(it took us 45 hour to find a healer and another night it took us 2 hours spamming in trade for a tank when we have attendance issues).

This will be our last week of MSV. We are now spending our time in HoF only and working on terrace after we get our folks geared from HoF+dominance offensive 496 gear and 496 craftables.
The majority of us have voted to do this due to the fact 9/10 people in our core want to do ToT normal at launch. (I'm just hoping we have time to catch up, say like 2 months or so. but that in itself is pushing it)
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
02/04/2013 08:24 PMPosted by Çlassic
The majority of us have voted to do this due to the fact 9/10 people in our core want to do ToT normal at launch.
They need to realize what proper expectations are for your group. It's fine to raid casually, but don't expect the same progress as people who raid more or take their toons more seriously. If your raiders aren't all on the same page as to what to expect, you're going to lose them once ToT hits anyway.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
(it took us 45 hour to find a healer

I know pugs can take a while to fill but this is pretty dedicated.
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90 Orc Warlock
7195
Could almost level an alt healer from 1 in that time.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9355
(it took us 45 hour to find a healer

I know pugs can take a while to fill but this is pretty dedicated.
Hahaha! Pugging is pretty terrible on my server too. I think it probably would take 45 hours to find a healer. When we do pug, the pugs just die and we 9 man what we have on farm. We took a warlock on Tues who was nearly being out-dps'ed by our disc priest. He was so excited to be raiding though. It was cute. :)
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90 Orc Warlock
13430
02/04/2013 08:24 PMPosted by Çlassic
I am in no way saying we suck at what we do. But having a raid team in a casual guild makes it a bit slow. Our rules are relaxed and raiding on a low pop server has its drawbacks.(it took us 45 hour to find a healer and another night it took us 2 hours spamming in trade for a tank when we have attendance issues).


There are various methods of recruitment, including server and guild recruitment forums right here. But if you're running a 10m and have consistent attendance issues, run on a low pop server, and want to keep those who don't show around, 7/16N is what you're going to get. I didn't say you guys suck. I said for T14 Normal, you get out roughly what you put in. It's not easy mode, because that would be redundant. You need to know mechanics, pay attention and in general, be able to put out more than 55-65k DPS.

If your guild runs logs, we could look at those and perhaps point out what you may be doing wrong. We can only respond based on what info you give us. Referring to yourselves as casual and claiming Blizzard is "throwing you under the bus" just isn't going to get much sympathy around here.

For the record, I don't understand what the resistance is against trying to get better at raid performance and knowing one's class. I'm not saying look up all the theorycrafting for your class, but you don't need all that to clear Normals. Just encounter knowledge and general rotation/priority list for your class.
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90 Pandaren Priest
6780
02/04/2013 09:47 PMPosted by Zakigga
I am in no way saying we suck at what we do. But having a raid team in a casual guild makes it a bit slow. Our rules are relaxed and raiding on a low pop server has its drawbacks.(it took us 45 hour to find a healer and another night it took us 2 hours spamming in trade for a tank when we have attendance issues).


There are various methods of recruitment, including server and guild recruitment forums right here. But if you're running a 10m and have consistent attendance issues, run on a low pop server, and want to keep those who don't show around, 7/16N is what you're going to get. I didn't say you guys suck. I said for T14 Normal, you get out roughly what you put in. It's not easy mode, because that would be redundant. You need to know mechanics, pay attention and in general, be able to put out more than 55-65k DPS.

If your guild runs logs, we could look at those and perhaps point out what you may be doing wrong. We can only respond based on what info you give us. Referring to yourselves as casual and claiming Blizzard is "throwing you under the bus" just isn't going to get much sympathy around here.

For the record, I don't understand what the resistance is against trying to get better at raid performance and knowing one's class. I'm not saying look up all the theorycrafting for your class, but you don't need all that to clear Normals. Just encounter knowledge and general rotation/priority list for your class.


I don't think I was resisting that suggestion. I know my class( I could be more serious about reforging EVERYTIME i switch my spec..but thats depending on the boss and would require time out of our raiding time). When our raid wipes, its usually to people being stupid for a second standing in the wrong place or pressing the wrong buttons, or if we are slightly under the dps mark(usually only due to someone dying and already used a B rez). our healers do fine. we have 4 people within my raid group who already do a bunch of heroic bosses on another high pop server(so maybe they are bored and don't put much effort in?).

as far as raid performance goes, i think we should get better. our raid leader who explains fights etc already does 11/16 heroic with a bunch of RL friends on other days.

I am beginning to think the ilvl of most folks on my core team is a bit higher atm since people say they only need gear from WotE. (bad ilvl averaging on my part).

our warlock, elemental shaman and DK pull 65-90k dps when i asked them to tell me on a single target practice dummy. so that just leaves the 2 dps and the healer with a dps offspec to improve. and of course our tanks to pull some more. I think we have the DPS for HoF we jsut need to get over those humps and actually do !@#$
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90 Human Death Knight
13875
As painfully obvious as this is: In two weeks time of capping valor and running through every LFR instance (MV, HoF, ToES) you could probably gear up most of those players that are still using 450 blues. Also, using things like gems, and enchants really do make a difference; I know many people hate to spend the 20 to 1000 gold per gem/enchant, but it really helps a lot. Also, try out those nifty things called professions; apart from being able to make 476/496 gear, you can also add better personal enchants to your armor, or have someone in your guild make something for you. Just saying if gear is an issue, just put some time and money into it and it won't be a problem anymore. I cleared the first couple of bosses in MV using 463 blues, 476 self-crafted, and a few 489 valor pieces. Had to pay a boat load for the living steel transmutes and I had to farm up some spirits, but if you want to do well, you have to invest time and money.

But then again, I'm just a "casual player"...
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90 Pandaren Priest
6780
I cleared the first couple of bosses in MV using 463 blues, 476 self-crafted, and a few 489 valor pieces. Had to pay a boat load for the living steel transmutes and I had to farm up some spirits, but if you want to do well, you have to invest time and money.

But then again, I'm just a "casual player"...


cool story bro. in fact I also "downed the first couple of MSV bosses" wearing a few valor pieces 2 476 crafted and a + 476 sha and 463 gear. As much as I hate to admit it, our progression was stalled probably a collective of 1 month of raiding due to holidays, guild drama, and attendance issues. All of which have been dealt with and we have a good thing going the past few weeks and hope to make great strides and get people geared before ToT normal pops.

Our MT had 437 shoulders and 450 blues which have been replaced by 489 and 496 respectively(just last week). and he only logs on to raid now.(hence the drama of sometimes having to recruit a new tank, fire new tank, spend hours lf a tank looking to work with us since we cant give them free loot since only 7 bosses are on farm)
Edited by Çlassic on 2/5/2013 1:22 PM PST
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