Improve Ambush and Backstab plz!!!!!!!!!!

90 Human Rogue
5690
with the low crit rate on Backstab and ambush crit they feel very weak and useless, my friends feral druid is a lot less geared then me and can ravage for 80-100, why cant rogues even come close plz fix this its a joke.
Edited by Cantouchdiz on 2/6/2013 5:02 PM PST
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90 Human Rogue
5690
please add any comments or suggestion
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90 Undead Rogue
6385
Ambush is not reliable but when it crits is good, Back stab should have a waylay or energy return benefit if we cannot have its crit modifiers.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
If you're rolling sub, stop complaining about ambush damage.

If you're assassination / combat, STOP USING ambush.


You have that in reverse.

Ambush has higher DPE than all of our generators except Dispatch. So, you should be using it when you can. Since it is our hardest hitting generator in terms of raw damage, if you have Shadow Focus, it's even worth using over Dispatch. Example: if you Vanish during the execute phase.

Garrote does awful damage now and is terrible with Venomous Wounds(as it ticks every 3s instead of every 2s like Rupture). So, you should never use it unless you need the Silence.

Which means, in PVE, you should always open with Ambush if you are Assassination or Combat. In PVP, if you don't need to stun or silence the target, you should Ambush.
Edited by Knocrogue on 2/7/2013 10:13 AM PST
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90 Human Rogue
uhh
6070
dont ever open ambush in pvp... not ever... never ever... i mean it!
Edited by Focksy on 2/7/2013 3:21 PM PST
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02/07/2013 09:37 AMPosted by Paníc
Back stab should have a waylay


I miss Waylay /sigh
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02/07/2013 03:20 PMPosted by Focksy
dont ever open ambush in pvp... not ever... never ever... i mean it!


Open with ambush if the target is sitting down eating with 10% hp.
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90 Human Rogue
12550
02/07/2013 03:49 PMPosted by Newkie
dont ever open ambush in pvp... not ever... never ever... i mean it!


Open with ambush if the target is sitting down eating with 10% hp.


No man, you open with Ambush ALWAYS, you can get a full 6 second kidney AND you sure did scare them.
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90 Human Rogue
uhh
6070
lololol
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90 Worgen Rogue
4380
improved backstab was the only reason it was worth using... without the extra crit chance, backstab is just a huge energy sinc.
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90 Undead Rogue
8650

I don't know how you're going to have a leftover vanish for the execute phase in assassination. Right now, we have horrible survivability unless you stack some major resil and then either way, you just wasted a vanish in order to get one ambush that may or may not kill your opponent and could have been used to save your own life.

The case of "if you Vanish during the execute phase", I'm almost certain, was meant as: If you're forced to Vanish during the execute phase.
You should not be Vanishing just to use an opener unless you REALLY need that clutch silence or stun.
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02/07/2013 09:37 AMPosted by Paníc
Back stab should have a waylay or energy return

The 5 energy return from crits was built into backstab, if you haven't noticed, the old cost was 40 and now its 35
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90 Undead Rogue
8650
02/07/2013 07:14 PMPosted by Innamorta
I hope that is what he meant. But I still wouldn't open with ambush as assass, I would much prefer a garrote no matter which target I am on, because I personally love the silence as well as the increased DoT in case I have to switch targets; just alittle more pressure on said player.
But you're just going to want to put Rupture up as soon as possible for VW though, and Garrote's dmg is almost negligible not to mention it gens -1 cp than Ambush.
So if you're wanting to get the most dmg out of it you really SHOULD use Ambush on targets that the silence isn't needed.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Well, let's look at Garrotes damage:
Pre-Mop patch at 85, my Garrote ticked for 2530(5211 crit) with Hemo up.
At 90 right now, it ticks for 2706(5574 crit). Very, very little increase. While health pools have doubled.

Here's my 85 Ambush(Both as Subtlety without buffs):
(3311 * 3.99) + 1467 = 14677.89 * 2.0 = 29355.78
90:
(9681 * 4.7) + 2930 = 48430.7 * 2 = 96861.4

Garrote doesn't deal damage in my eyes. Those 2706 ticks are just aesthetic.
-
As for Vanish, I meant if you want to deal damage, you should Ambush. If you need to silence or stun, you use Garrote/Cheap Shot. I didn't mean it any other way!
Edited by Knocrogue on 2/7/2013 7:54 PM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
5780
Well, let's look at Garrotes damage:
Pre-Mop patch at 85, my Garrote ticked for 2530(5211 crit) with Hemo up.
At 90 right now, it ticks for 2706(5574 crit). Very, very little increase. While health pools have doubled.

Here's my 85 Ambush(Both as Subtlety without buffs):
(3311 * 3.99) + 1467 = 14677.89 * 2.0 = 29355.78
90:
(9681 * 4.7) + 2930 = 48430.7 * 2 = 96861.4

Garrote doesn't deal damage in my eyes. Those 2706 ticks are just aesthetic.
-
As for Vanish, I meant if you want to deal damage, you should Ambush. If you need to silence or stun, you use Garrote/Cheap Shot. I didn't mean it any other way!


Right, garrote is used for the silence and the dot. I think a huge QoL change for Mut rogues would be to make it tick every 2 seconds instead of 3 while keeping the damage the same.
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02/07/2013 07:58 PMPosted by Ådp
Right, garrote is used for the silence and the dot.

and sv
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
02/07/2013 08:07 PMPosted by Rainymood
and sv


Speaking of that. I've always though if they really wanted to push Garrote away from damage, they really should have gave Ambush some form of bleed.
Say it ticked for 1 damage every 2s for 6s so it's base damage wouldn't have to be nerfed. Then put it on both Sanguinary Vein and Venomous Wounds. Truly, you'd really only ever have to use Garrote for the Silence. Which is what they want, I think.
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