Ret dps lacking

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9495
Didn't read your whole post because dear lord, my eyes.

But as someone who raids in a 25 man heroic setting, against someone of equal gear and skill, yes it is lacking. Though thankfully we aren't shadow priests ;)

Also 20k Templar's Verdict? That's scarily low. Do you have Inquisition up? I was hitting 120k TV crits in DS with CDs up & roughly 50-60k non-crit and while gearing up in MoP that largely remained the same except for level 88 where Harsh Words out did it (probably due to my weapon).
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1 Gnome Warrior
0

Bring it on Grog. There is nothing wrong with my armory.


You have Holy Prism. Exec. Sent. is superior for single target dps.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730

Bring it on Grog. There is nothing wrong with my armory.


You have Holy Prism. Exec. Sent. is superior for single target dps.


True, but not necessarily wrong since talents and glyphs for Ret shift frequently; I tend to prefer Prism for 5-mans and questing, m'self.
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90 Human Paladin
15265
02/04/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Thadium
Real PVE, not LFR


"Real PvE" for you may be normal and heroic raids. "Real PvE" for me IS LFR.

Do you know the reason LFR was introduced? It was designed for the more "Casual" players like me, who don't have much play time, to experience end game content. Why should LFR not be considered "Real PvE" And also, why should ret not be balanced in LFR?

The way I see it... Normal and Heroic raiders are the "Elitist". They have separated themselves from all others because, in their mind, everything else is not "Real PvE" This is what I have been seeing all over the place.

LFR doesn't count.. Dungeons don't count... Non-rated BG's don't count... Only "Real Raiding" and Rated BG's count. Sounds all wrong to me.

Casual players do out number the raiders as well at the hardcore PvP players. Why should I have to subject myself to dealing with the "Real PvE" players in order to get the gear required to be "Middle of the pack" ( Or Beast, or what ever you want to call it )

I am not directing this towards anyone in particular, I am speaking of the raiding community as a whole. ( From what I have seen )


Or it could be that they've said try out normal modes if you want the real Raiding experience?

Yes LFR is for the 'casuals', its designed to be done with 25 random people. Its not important to play optimally in.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10745
Prism is a lazer, therefore it is the best talent.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
@Grog I was replying to Benevor. Though your claim that talents and glyphs for ret "change frequently" is conjecture, from a maximizing dps pov. The only major talent changes that retadins undergo is swapping to get SW upon getting 4pc and switching to LH instead of ES for aoe damage (2+ targets). As for glyphs the only 1s worth getting are TV, Double Jep, and Mass Exo. Even then DJ and ME only come into play for aoe dps and TV is a lovely passive with a high uptime.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
I know you were speaking to Benevor, but my point was that talents aren't really a good thing to poke at any more - because they can change for a certain situation, and then be forgotten before logging. I went through a stack a night on some progression attempts, trying to figure out what worked best for me and my raid comp.

...Hell, I think I'm logged with LH at the moment because the last most pressing thing I did in game was some Tsulong attempts two weeks ago and I still haven't gotten around to fixing it.
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90 Human Paladin
5570
02/04/2013 03:52 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
EDIT: Because I feel like being thorough, you have no clear gemming bias - you have a mix of pure haste and pure strength gems, when it should be one or the other (except Serpent's Eyes - leave those as Bold at all times, matching red sockets where possible, prismatics otherwise); your personal stat weights clearly indicate that you need to be gemming with a bias towards haste. This means that you should be matching yellow and prismatic sockets with Quick gems (except where you need Serpent's Eyes), blue sockets with Lightning gems, and red sockets with Fierce gems (except where you need Serpent's Eyes). Considering you're a good bit over hit cap, probably want to change cloak enchant to crit instead of hit.


Thanks grog
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90 Human Paladin
5570
02/04/2013 03:49 PMPosted by Arte
there is something wrong with something in your something


Well the only thing I can think of is that I am using ClC ret.
Is that the problem?

I'd love to be pulling your numbers, so it was inspiring to see them
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90 Draenei Paladin
2795
I know you were speaking to Benevor, but my point was that talents aren't really a good thing to poke at any more - because they can change for a certain situation, and then be forgotten before logging. I went through a stack a night on some progression attempts, trying to figure out what worked best for me and my raid comp.

...Hell, I think I'm logged with LH at the moment because the last most pressing thing I did in game was some Tsulong attempts two weeks ago and I still haven't gotten around to fixing it.


What grog said is spot on. Our top tier talents are really designed to be catered towards different fights...making none outshine any of the others 100% of the time (I personally like it...it's a "utility" that a lot of people don't seem to realize). For instance, I usually roll with ES, but I will switch to HP for fights that our healers seem to struggle with (usually only on certain progression fights) until healing no longer seems to be an issue.

If there was a way to determine what talents were being used for what fights (and I'm sure there is, but I'm too lazy to dig into other people's parses that may exist online), then yes, by all means criticize the talent choice on a case-by-case basis.
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90 Human Paladin
8095
02/04/2013 03:55 PMPosted by Kerensky
Gemming for haste is only viable once you reach a certain gear plateau. That's why ret paladins should be running SimC to find out when Haste matches/supersedes Str in stat weightage.


I have been told to gem str because I don't have high enough gear yet. I was also told that I was wrong and need to gem haste.

There are too many people with too many different views on what is right and what is wrong. Some say use SimCraft, others say don't use it. Some say WoL is not good, some say it is. I can go on but I think everyone knows this already.

This make it difficult to figure out who to listen to. I don't go by how many heroic kills you have, or how many times you ran LFR. Bad advice is worse than no advice at all. It makes people not want to trust others anymore.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
02/04/2013 04:55 PMPosted by Thadium
I have been told to gem str because I don't have high enough gear yet. I was also told that I was wrong and need to gem haste.


When I originally advised you, when you were still in mostly heroic blues, you needed strength; however you've since breached the haste mark, and I believe I've said as much.

02/04/2013 04:55 PMPosted by Thadium
There are too many people with too many different views on what is right and what is wrong. Some say use SimCraft, others say don't use it. Some say WoL is not good, some say it is.


All tools are good tools, if used correctly; players that point at a set of numbers on one tool and cry without any logical interpretation of the data are using those tools poorly.

02/04/2013 04:45 PMPosted by Benevor
there is something wrong with something in your something


Well the only thing I can think of is that I am using ClC ret.
Is that the problem?

I'd love to be pulling your numbers, so it was inspiring to see them


How are you using CLC? Are you blindly following its listed priority? Have you tweaked its list? Are you so busy focusing on the changing icons of CLC that you're not paying attention to fire on the floor - or impending lack of floor (LOL Trollegon)?
Edited by Grôgnárd on 2/4/2013 5:02 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8095
02/04/2013 05:00 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
All tools are good tools, if used correctly; players that point at a set of numbers on one tool and cry without any logical interpretation of the data are using those tools poorly.


Thank you for the clarification. I will have to learn how to use the tools correctly.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16995
I don't know why you guys are wasting your breath, some people will always be bad because they refuse to be anything else.

Ret isn't going to blow the charts away, but it will perform well in competent hands. Competent being the keyword.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 2/4/2013 5:16 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9300
I don't know why you guys are wasting your breath, some people will always be bad because theu=y refuse to be anything else.

Ret isn't going to blow the charts away, but it will perform well in competent hands. Competent being the keyword.


Sometimes this is true, but as long as people are willing to learn, I'll be willing to teach.

And ret may not blow the charts away, but a good ret is pretty noticeable. I don't care about topping the charts so much, as long as I'm competitive and playing as well as I can get myself to play.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9300
02/04/2013 04:45 PMPosted by Benevor
there is something wrong with something in your something


Well the only thing I can think of is that I am using ClC ret.
Is that the problem?

I'd love to be pulling your numbers, so it was inspiring to see them


I don't use ClCret, so I can't say if it is bad or not. I just use the following priority with a few exceptions:

3HP inq>5HPTV>HoW>exo>CS>judgment>3/4hpTV

Know that Judgment does more damage than CS, but we use CS>Judgment so that the cooldowns dont come off at the same time. Because of this, periods when HoW is usable may change the priority to J>CS. If you have the choice to use either CS or Judgment, and you think you can cast at least two more spells after that, use judgment over CS.

During SW I use 3HP inq>5hpTV>HoW>Es/LH>4hpTV>exo>judgment>CS>3HPTV
That's the priority, not rotation.

Gearing is pretty simple with simcraft. Download that sucker and start using it. Use the weights you get from SimC and plug them into reforgelite to optimize your reforging.

Thats ret pve at a glance, but you may need tips on how to dps in general. Uptime is really important. Make sure you have a UI that works well for you and tailors to your needs. Addons can be really helpful, but too many can distract you with a cluttered UI. You'll need something to track buffs/auras. I use weakauras, but there are many others that work. Having an alert to tell you when Cds are up or when inquisition has under 5 seconds left can prevent you from making mistakes that would hurt your dps.

I can't stay to finish this. It's incomplete, but I'll post it anyway and edit it later.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0

What grog said is spot on. Our top tier talents are really designed to be catered towards different fights...making none outshine any of the others 100% of the time (I personally like it...it's a "utility" that a lot of people don't seem to realize). For instance, I usually roll with ES, but I will switch to HP for fights that our healers seem to struggle with (usually only on certain progression fights) until healing no longer seems to be an issue.

If there was a way to determine what talents were being used for what fights (and I'm sure there is, but I'm too lazy to dig into other people's parses that may exist online), then yes, by all means criticize the talent choice on a case-by-case basis.


Actually it isn't. There are clear choices that are best for either single target (ES) or aoe dps (LH).

But part of your posts speaks to a topic that I've seen around a lot lately on these forums and that I think is not helping the random retadin who comes to these forums for some help. This idea that ret has to have utility in PvE. As a ret paladin you are there to do damage. Yea you can throw out a bop if you have someone in your raid who loves to not avoid raid mechanics, but at no point should you, as a ret pally, be assisting with the heals. If the heals are slacking to the point where you feel the need to pick up HP and use it on CD, then either replace your healers or tell them to get better.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16995
02/04/2013 07:07 PMPosted by Kerensky
This idea that ret has to have utility in PvE.


We have utility and there's no reason not to use it.

02/04/2013 07:07 PMPosted by Kerensky
As a ret paladin you are there to do damage.


Yes we are but a Retribution Paladin can do more.

02/04/2013 07:07 PMPosted by Kerensky
but at no point should you, as a ret pally, be assisting with the heals.


In a perfect world no and if it becomes regularly required of you then yeah you should probably yell at your healers. But there are times whether you're pushing bleeding edge or just in a casual guild having trouble on a boss where your utility can make or break a kill.

You speak in absolutes, you say that Retribution should ignore all the utility it brings to focus solely on it's damage dealing.

Well if you never touch your utility spells then you're a bad Ret Paladin. It is perfectly possible to assist the raid group with such abilities and still keep your DPS output up.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 2/4/2013 7:46 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
02/04/2013 07:43 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
Well if you never touch your utility spells then you're a bad Ret Paladin. It is perfectly possible to assist the raid group with such abilities and still keep your DPS output up.


Off-heals on Tsulong FTW.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
Your selective quotation is amusing. But I digress


We have utility and there's no reason not to use it.


Nowhere did I advocate for not using any ret "utility." We'll get to that in a minute.



You speak in absolutes, you say that Retribution should ignore all the utility it brings to focus solely on it's damage dealing.

Well if you never touch your utility spells then you're a bad Ret Paladin. It is perfectly possible to assist the raid group with such abilities and still keep your DPS output up.


Actually I didn't. If you care to re-read my post you'll notice I talk about the utlity of BoP, though in the context of having to use it to save someone who is slow or not paying attention to the mechanics.

Anywho, the post I was responding to touches on the subject of ret off-healing via a inferior talent. That specific utility is mostly rubbish and dangerous to new rets. There are times, to use your diction, during "bleeding edge" progression, where LoHing a low tank may ensure a kill. But the probability of that happening is not in favor of your argumentation.

tl,dr: For a newly dinged 90 ret they should worry 1st about their dps, as their grow in skill and become accustomed to their specific raid team and raiding in general then they can dabble in "utility."
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