Update on 5.2 haste change: Revenger's shield

90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
Paladin
To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.

Card subject to change, YMMV, etc
Edited by Ðemolition on 2/4/2013 1:14 PM PST
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100 Draenei Warrior
14140
Peesh, that's the least controversial change that GC announced. Giving mages a passive defensive boost? SOUNDS LIKE MAGE TANKING TO ME!

</trolling>
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Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Dwarf Warrior
17115
That's not why they're going haste in the first place, and it seems like it won't change the procrate that much.

It actually has worked out well with revenge.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
*shrug*

Seems fine to me.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17430
Increased holy power generation isn't the sole reason to go for haste, but it is a big part of it, and this change does reduce holy power generation scaling with haste, since it will no longer increase the frequency of GC procs.

Still, most of the holy power generation scaling from haste will remain intact, so it'll probably maintain its position, or maybe fall slightly behind mastery depending on how you value increased damage, etc.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14860
02/04/2013 01:53 PMPosted by Asane
That's not why they're going haste in the first place, and it seems like it won't change the procrate that much.


It gives avoidance a dps benefit and allows it to increase HP generation. It misses out on the reliability of HP generation for single-target, but allows resource generation to scale with the number of attackers, which has been a sore spot for some folks recently.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Focused Shield + Wind Lord is going to be fun.
Also projectile time means you can chuck shields while you chuck shields, and they'll bounce while they bounce.

ALSO tanking adds while machine gunning shields at a boss from 30 yards away.

Also, called it !1! (along with like 20 other people)

Time for fun.
Edited by Slashlove on 2/4/2013 2:25 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Yeah, I may have to level my paladin for dungeons after this change. Pulling large trash packs is going to be fun.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17430
Eh, machine gunning might be a bit of an exaggeration. With 30% avoidance and 10 attackers, you've got a ~50% shot at getting a GC proc within a GCD, and that is a rather extreme situation outside of mass pulling in heroics. Though that would be enough to almost ensure holy power generation on every GCD, at least.

Still, it'll proc a whole lot more on multi-target/AoE situations, that is for sure.
Edited by Asthas on 2/4/2013 2:08 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
17480
Oh how did I miss this thread?

I'm going to have to try it out and see how it feels.

On wind lord it definitely won't be as spammable as revenge, but it will definitely be up more. Might not be worth getting focused shield for since on heroic when he's in recklessness you only are tanking 3 adds and the boss anyway.

This may also make tanking challenge modes slightly more tolerable on a paladin. More SotR uptime when you're doing those massive pulls that make you and your healer clench certain parts of your body.

Edit: This has a downside, though. What about fights like Lei Shi. All magic except for a few parts. I will be seeing 0 grand crusader procs unless I'm tanking an add every 20%. That will hurt a bit.
Edited by Perseus on 2/4/2013 2:16 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
On wind lord it definitely won't be as spammable as revenge, but it will definitely be up more. Might not be worth getting focused shield for since on heroic when he's in recklessness you only are tanking 3 adds and the boss anyway.


Doing more damage to a target taking 600% more damage is already worth it instead of doing cleave damage to 2 other targets.
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100 Human Paladin
17480
02/04/2013 02:16 PMPosted by Slashlove
On wind lord it definitely won't be as spammable as revenge, but it will definitely be up more. Might not be worth getting focused shield for since on heroic when he's in recklessness you only are tanking 3 adds and the boss anyway.


Doing more damage to a target taking 600% more damage is already worth it instead of doing cleave damage to 2 other targets.


Or maybe taking out a group of adds a bit faster so that you can get each recklessness phase quicker for your entire raid will be more of a boost overall?

Either way, you'd have to drop battle healer, alabaster shield, or divine protection glyph. None of those I would like to drop on that fight. Although if I had to, it would be battle healer.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15025
HOW DARE YOU I SO MAD BLIZZ SUB CANC-

......?

That's it? ....Really?

Well uh... Hmm... That doesn't seem so bad. World's not ending then, I guess? Dammit this is even more of a letdown than the whole 2012 thing. What am I gonna do with all this canned food? Give it to the needy? What do I look like, a priest? eff that.

I still hope they won't nerf ShoR and/or SoB somewhere down the line, though, if weening us away from haste is really the bigger picture here. I'm still scared, but I'm moving from raging cynicism to cautious optimism.
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100 Human Paladin
13290
I think at the very least this needs some iteration to be honest, and it may be a bad solution. I will try to crunch some numbers later on, but here's my suspicion:

1) At its current values it's an overall nerf even to paladins stacking avoidance over haste in single-target situations. Baseline haste from SoI means every paladin is trotting around with 10% faster GCDs. Even stacking an awful lot of avoidance (say, 30% combined dodge+parry?) I find it hard to believe that a 25% chance to proc off of a dodge/parry is going to trump a 20% chance to proc off of CS/HotR every ~4.1 seconds or so. Assuming a 1.8s attack speed and 30% avoidance, you go from a 20% chance every ~4.1 seconds to a 7.5% chance every 1.8 seconds. Even before you take "munching" into account (what happens when you get a GrC proc just as CS and J come off cooldown? You won't be able to spend it before the next swing, which is potentially another GrC proc...) that's a loss.

You could probably solve this issue just by increasing the proc chance somewhat so that it's at least not a nerf to non-haste-stacking paladins. Unfortunately, the more you increase the chance, the more quickly you run into...

2) With enough procs, I suspect haste will *still* be king. This is because paladins spend something like ~55% of their GCDs on Holy Power-generating activities (basically: CS or J) already before you take GrC procs into account. Once you reliably start "munching" procs, the question becomes "what will let me spend procs faster?" The answer to that question is haste.

Realistically this is mostly going to happen in AOE situations like Mel'jarak and Empress adds, but the basic problem is that by reducing your GCD, haste will still let you spend GrC procs faster. Effectively haste will raise your "cap" on how many GrC procs are actually useful to you.

02/04/2013 01:53 PMPosted by Asane
It actually has worked out well with revenge.


The reason it works for Revenge is because warriors have a lot more room to utilize Revenge procs in their rotation. Baseline, the list of things that are "better" than Revenge to spend GCDs on is vanishingly small - you spend ~25% of your GCDs on Shield Slam, and pretty much everything else is something you'd delay for a Revenge proc. Compare that to paladins - CS/J generate equivalent Holy Power to GrC, so you never want to delay them, and they occupy 55% of the rotation.

Warriors also don't have a haste option that effectively amounts to "you can spend Revenge procs 20% faster". If they did, you can bet that warriors would be building haste sets for fights like Mel'jarak and Shekzeer where you sometimes get procs faster than you can spend them.

EDIT: Just to be clear: as a haste-stacking paladin I'm relatively happy with this. This isn't a "complaint." It's just me observing that, hey, I don't think this is going to have the effect they want, because in single-target situations every paladin (even the ones who don't wear any haste on gear) will be worse off than they are now...and in AOE situations where procs are plentiful, it wouldn't surprise me if this is not only a net buff for haste, but if haste is actually better than avoidance.
Edited by Branar on 2/4/2013 2:29 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Or maybe taking out a group of adds a bit faster so that you can get each recklessness phase quicker for your entire raid will be more of a boost overall?


Nope. The fight isn't a race when he's not Recklessness'd - chances are if your aoe is good, you have to stop or hold back on AoE to prevent accidental kills anyway.

At its current values it's an overall nerf even to paladins stacking avoidance over haste in single-target situations. Baseline haste from SoI means every paladin is trotting around with 10% faster GCDs. Even stacking an awful lot of avoidance (say, 30% combined dodge+parry?) I find it hard to believe that a 25% chance to proc off of a dodge/parry is going to trump a 20% chance to proc off of CS/HotR every ~4.1 seconds or so. Assuming a 1.8s attack speed and 30% avoidance, you go from a 20% chance every ~4.1 seconds to a 7.5% chance every 1.8 seconds. Even before you take "munching" into account (what happens when you get a GrC proc just as CS and J come off cooldown? You won't be able to spend it before the next swing, which is potentially another GrC proc...) that's a loss.


They changed the note to a 30% chance almost immediately.
Plus since we no longer have AS slows, we can assume 1.5 speed.
It'll come out roughly equivalent.

Assume 25% dodge/parry, and 30% chance and 1.5 swing speed, and 4 second CS cd.

Using a 12 second window, 3 CS = 0.8^3 = 0.512, or a 48.8% chance of at least 1 proc.
Using the same 12 second window, 8 swings = 0.925^8 = 0.536

Close enough.

Also, bear in mind that a direct impact on Haste being small, also indirectly ricochets on D/P versus Hit/Exp/Mastery because of that interaction. In fact, having D/P will now also boost the value on, say, Mastery, and similarly, having higher Mastery/Haste will boost the value of D/P somewhat. It's interesting.

Also, SoI doesn't affect SoB, it only adds a SS tick.
Edited by Slashlove on 2/4/2013 2:51 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
17480
02/04/2013 02:22 PMPosted by Slashlove
Or maybe taking out a group of adds a bit faster so that you can get each recklessness phase quicker for your entire raid will be more of a boost overall?


Nope. The fight isn't a race when he's not Recklessness'd - chances are if your aoe is good, you have to stop or hold back on AoE to prevent accidental kills anyway.


Could just be our group. The damage I put on the adds without focused shield seems to be perfectly timed with a set dying right after his rain of blades anyway. Probably being is that we have 3 people CCing and dispelling quickening, and 3 other people dispelling quickening without worrying about CC. This is a 10 man, so they really don't get that much time to dps while menders are up.

But you could be right after the change. If I get more grand crusader procs, we may have to hold.

I'm still worried about fights like Lei Shi, though. Getting no grand crusader procs would be kind of a big deal in terms of my overall survivability on that fight.
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90 Human Paladin
10930
I'm still worried about fights like Lei Shi, though. Getting no grand crusader procs would be kind of a big deal in terms of my overall survivability on that fight.


Warriors don't get Revenge procs that fight either.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Warriors don't get Revenge procs that fight either.


HIs reference point isn't Warriors.
It's Paladins before and after patch.

There would be no point in him referring to Warriors because this change is not intended to alter anything relative to another class.
Edited by Slashlove on 2/4/2013 2:38 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17430
I don't think there are any Lei Shi like bosses in throne, so its not a huge concern, but yea between this and WoG being somewhat meh when spammed paladins are probably the weakest against a pure magic damage boss. But that is a fairly rare gimmick to have literally zero melee swings for long periods.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
between this and WoG being somewhat meh when spammed paladins are probably the weakest against a pure magic damage boss.


Technically that is going to be somewhat offset with the fact that Purity will actually work on non-periodic as well.

Plus a 40% dr cd is pretty awesome considering you can use it every other time you tank.
Edited by Slashlove on 2/4/2013 2:43 PM PST
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