Give Ret A Real Symbiosis

90 Human Paladin
8795
This far along in an xpac I'm well aware of the /spit the developers intended with the symbiosis spell for lolret : Wrath. A ranged nuke we can't use because:
A) lolret is ostensibly a melee class, and
B) lolret as a melee class has next to no mana, and
C) it makes about zero sense to hardcast a nuke as a melee for 8k damage at best.

So will this remain /spit lolret the entire xpac? I'd love a blue response on this. If you can simply say "yes, it will remain Wrath the entire xpac" that would be fine so we at least understand the developers' mindset.

Thank you in advance,
Lolrets Everywhere
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
Seems like a small sacrifice for getting dispel on a 4 second cooldown. Also, something to do while you're stuck in a root!
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90 Human Paladin
6460
It's actually a pretty fun spell. If we ever have to stay at range or are stuck in a root it comes in handy. Plus it's spammable, for the most part, so it's not too bad. It could be better but it could be worse.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6800
02/03/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
Seems like a small sacrifice for getting dispel on a 4 second cooldown. Also, something to do while you're stuck in a root!


Are you serious about "ret being stuck in a root"? Do you have any idea of ret abilities?
Wrath is trash and no one uses it, and I do mean no one.
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90 Orc Warlock
11975
02/03/2013 09:27 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
Also, something to do while you're stuck in a root!


02/03/2013 10:59 PMPosted by Gabath
If we ever have to stay at range or are stuck in a root it comes in handy.


You know what I usually do in that situation? Hand of Freedom. If it is on CD, Emancipate. Never ever ever ever do I think "I should stand here and hardcast nonsense".

Problem is all the cool spells are divied out to all the other classes. To give Ret anything other than Wrath would make rets codependent on druids for optimum dps (such as sunfire, rake, etc). Dash might be a good one. Teleport moonguard is another option. Anything but wrath.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
I remember when Prot got it, and could dump 150-200k Wraths after a tank swap while vengeance lasted.

That was silly.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Wrath costs 1.7% of base mana. You literally can't go OOM from casting it; Sheath of Light regenerates far more than it costs. It also deals far in excess of 8k damage.

A ranged spell with a cast time is rather clunky for a melee spec, to be sure. The current version has only a few very narrow niches. I don't think that means our Symbiosis necessarily needs to be something other than Wrath, though. It just means our version of Wrath needs some tweaks to make it more useful. For example, if it had a shortish cooldown (say, 10 seconds) but was castable while moving, it would be pretty handy against kiters and for movement phases in PvE, without affecting our core rotation.
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90 Tauren Druid
19270
02/04/2013 03:25 AMPosted by Ravicana
The current version has only a few very narrow niches. I don't think that means our Symbiosis necessarily needs to be something other than Wrath, though. It just means our version of Wrath needs some tweaks to make it more useful.


You have to remember though. Symbiosis isn't your spell... it's the druids. That you get anything out of symbiosis is a bonus to your already existing toolkit. It is our level 87 spell, not yours.

BTW our raiding ret paladin has a use for it on heroic zor'lok and H garalon. For when he's out of range in a bubble in p2 Zor'lok or if he has to be included in the pheramone kite rotation. he can still do damage.

Is it situational? Yes, but symbiosis itself is situational even for druids.
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90 Human Paladin
8795
Out of curiosity, would wearing holy gear make wrath hit harder? Not sure on sheath of light scaling vs a pure int/spell power set.

The only way to get the spell changed is to find a way to make it useful, which would annoy the living hell out of the devs.
Edited by Romavictor on 2/4/2013 5:22 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9970
The current version has only a few very narrow niches. I don't think that means our Symbiosis necessarily needs to be something other than Wrath, though. It just means our version of Wrath needs some tweaks to make it more useful.


You have to remember though. Symbiosis isn't your spell... it's the druids. That you get anything out of symbiosis is a bonus to your already existing toolkit. It is our level 87 spell, not yours.

BTW our raiding ret paladin has a use for it on heroic zor'lok and H garalon. For when he's out of range in a bubble in p2 Zor'lok or if he has to be included in the pheramone kite rotation. he can still do damage.

Is it situational? Yes, but symbiosis itself is situational even for druids.

Yes, I just think that right now it's TOO situational. It definitely should not be a core part of Ret gameplay, but it could be a little more broadly useful without stepping on any toes, IMO.
Out of curiosity, would wearing holy gear make wrath hit harder? Not sure on sheath of light scaling vs a pure int/spell power set.

The only way to get the spell changed is to find a way to make it useful, which would annoy the living hell out of the devs.

No, Ret doesn't get any spellpower from Int at all. The only way we can get spellpower is from Sword of Light. The Sheath of Light conversion means we get just as much spellpower from Strength as casters do from Int, anyway.
The scaling isn't really the problem; Wrath actually hits quite hard. I think mine were hitting for ~80k non-crit, last time I tested it. It's just usually not beneficial to stand still and cast it.
Edited by Ravicana on 2/4/2013 5:40 AM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
19270
02/04/2013 05:28 AMPosted by Ravicana
Yes, I just think that right now it's TOO situational. It definitely should not be a core part of Ret gameplay, but it could be a little more broadly useful without stepping on any toes, IMO.


Problem is a lot of the spells druids get are highly situational as well. It's not really meant to be gamechanging. When I use bubble from a paladin, it means I get to use it a maximum once per fight... which is useful on H zor'lok for example when the echo is attenuating and the boss is doing force and verve with only 2 out of the 4 bubbles availible. (Meaning people have to eat damage. ) It's the only way I can still do minimal dps....

Again very very situational. I mean wrath is better than dash, which is what hunters get for example. (and play dead for feral is about as useful as not given it shows you as a dead cat, big giveaway there given when you die you revert out of form as a druid).

And tbh Wrath hits harder than the wolves I get from shaman. Our ret did 2 mil damage whilst in a force and verve bubble, out of range of the boss to melee. My feral wolves from a shaman are lucky to do a grand total of 100k over the entire course of a 7 min fight (summoning it 3 times).
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90 Human Paladin
9970
02/04/2013 05:38 AMPosted by Waraila
Yes, I just think that right now it's TOO situational. It definitely should not be a core part of Ret gameplay, but it could be a little more broadly useful without stepping on any toes, IMO.


Problem is a lot of the spells druids get are highly situational as well. It's not really meant to be gamechanging.

Again, I agree.

I just think it could and should be slightly less situational. It should definitely not be game-changing; it should definitely not be a critical component of Ret gameplay; it would be nice if I were reasonably likely to consider casting it once at some point in the buff's 60-minute duration.
I really like Wrath as a symbiosis; it's just a shame that there's so rarely any reason to make use of it.
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90 Draenei Hunter
7730
Man I hate symbiosis and the repercussions its implementation has had in begging for nerfs/buffs.
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90 Human Paladin
8795
I'll have to try it out again now that I have better gear. The problem is the only time I'd use it (rooted), I'm blanket silenced so I can't get out of the root. I literally cannot think of a reason it would be used.

Ideally they'd swap the frost mage/lolret symbiosis - we get healing touch (a real heal) and they can have a new nuke.
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90 Human Paladin
16315
There might be some merit in swapping it out for Wild Growth on a longer cooldown - still situational, but more useful.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16960
Ret should get skull bash.
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02/04/2013 05:14 AMPosted by Waraila
The current version has only a few very narrow niches. I don't think that means our Symbiosis necessarily needs to be something other than Wrath, though. It just means our version of Wrath needs some tweaks to make it more useful.


You have to remember though. Symbiosis isn't your spell... it's the druids. That you get anything out of symbiosis is a bonus to your already existing toolkit. It is our level 87 spell, not yours.

BTW our raiding ret paladin has a use for it on heroic zor'lok and H garalon. For when he's out of range in a bubble in p2 Zor'lok or if he has to be included in the pheramone kite rotation. he can still do damage.

Is it situational? Yes, but symbiosis itself is situational even for druids.


Yeah, Symbiosis isn't supposed to change the target's rotation or anything, it's there to add another situational tool for both the Druid and the target. Wrath adds an extra situational tool to Rets, and that's all the spell is really meant to do.
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90 Troll Mage
18105
I had a 1mil+ crit Healing Touch on Tsulong. Mages get all the good spells!
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90 Night Elf Druid
6280
Symbiosis is freakin terrible if you're not a tank, we've come to accept this.
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