Give Ret A Real Symbiosis

90 Troll Warlock
11210
The Symbiosis benefit to the receiving class is meant to be situational utility. It's not supposed to be a major DPS increase (if one at all). Example, mages and warlocks both get a heal.

Symbiosis is supposed to be most useful to the casting druid, and provide basically just a conciliatory utility ability to the receiving class. If you use it well, though, it can be pretty potent (Rejuv usually clocks in at 50-60% of my total healing done on my warlock, and that's with Sacrifice and Soul Leech pouring in self-heals).
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100 Human Paladin
18120
The Symbiosis benefit to the receiving class is meant to be situational utility. It's not supposed to be a major DPS increase (if one at all). Example, mages and warlocks both get a heal.

Symbiosis is supposed to be most useful to the casting druid, and provide basically just a conciliatory utility ability to the receiving class. If you use it well, though, it can be pretty potent (Rejuv usually clocks in at 50-60% of my total healing done on my warlock, and that's with Sacrifice and Soul Leech pouring in self-heals).


The problem is that the circumstances during which Wrath can be used effectively for Ret are amongst the most narrow in the game due to our toolkit.

-Ret has two ranged attacks already (3 if you count Hammer of Wrath), meaning as a melee, we aren't hurting for ranged damage.
-Ret has Emancipate, meaning we're never stuck in a root unless we're also silenced, which also cancels out the use of Wrath.
-Wrath requires that you stand still, meaning you can't use it while being kited, or trying to avoid a variety of attacks.

This means that the ONLY times wrath can be useful is to weave in during the phases when only ranged can attack the boss, and there's no adds that need to be killed and you can safely stand still long enough to cast it.

Compare/contrast to what other specs gain, and yes, they can be a little narrow, but have their uses - battle rez, small tank cooldown, etc. They aren't nearly as marginal as their use in Ret's in both PVE (very marginal) AND PVP (completely useless).

As I posted on page 1, Wild growth on a longer (say, 1 minute?) cooldown would be of far greater use without being overpowered, but something more to consider.
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90 Human Priest
12075
02/06/2013 09:38 AMPosted by Idoma
all i see is the 84 alt of some one with little more raid progress then a filthy casual like me.

Oh sorry, let me take the 's' off for you. This guy more legit to you? Forgive me for logging out in my healing Offspec gear on Armory (the stuff you do for healer queues, right?). Here's a link to my Shadow PvE Raiding guide:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6369327305

I know what the hell I'm talking about here. You, however, do not seem to have a clue about Shadow Priests' Symbiosis Tranq.

THEMATICALLY. do you understand how illogical that is?

Thematically for Retribution specialized Paladins, illogical for them? I'll gladly concede that.

How would you feel though if you were given Nourish as your Symbiosis ability but it had a CD and healed for 1/3 of what Flash of Light did? If you can imagine that then you understand what Shadow Priests' Symbiosis Tranq is worth to us.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
The Symbiosis benefit to the receiving class is meant to be situational utility. It's not supposed to be a major DPS increase (if one at all). Example, mages and warlocks both get a heal.

Symbiosis is supposed to be most useful to the casting druid, and provide basically just a conciliatory utility ability to the receiving class. If you use it well, though, it can be pretty potent (Rejuv usually clocks in at 50-60% of my total healing done on my warlock, and that's with Sacrifice and Soul Leech pouring in self-heals).

What I think many people are missing is the fact that the Druid doesn't get anything out of the trade either. It's a worthless link to both parties, which is a unique situation.
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90 Human Paladin
8795
02/06/2013 07:53 AMPosted by Hafleur
That said, when it comes to PvP I'm pretty sure Ret-R. Druid wins the fail award.

As my resto druid arena partner said yesterday, "I wish I had another class, any class."
And my reply, "but then it would be too easy."

Heh.
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90 Night Elf Mage
10330
02/06/2013 09:38 AMPosted by Idoma
shadow tranq actually has a use.


Shadow Tranq is awful. PoMs, VE, and T6 talents will provide much more healing. Hell, I think I'd use Flash Heal over Shadow Tranq. Your ignorance is showing.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18405
02/03/2013 10:59 PMPosted by Gabath
It's actually a pretty fun spell. If we ever have to stay at range or are stuck in a root it comes in handy. Plus it's spammable, for the most part, so it's not too bad. It could be better but it could be worse.


... if you're seriously doing this, you're doing it wrong.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
15120
02/06/2013 04:57 PMPosted by Woaden
I know what the hell I'm talking about here. You, however, do not seem to have a clue about Shadow Priests' Symbiosis Tranq.


lol. still not impressed. i'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you are not kind of a big deal.

so lets review. you get a weakish raid cooldown that you have to give up personal epeen time to use. ret gets a castable ranged ability.
lets look at the two situations where wrath might be useful according to some of the people in this thread.

when you are rooted. when the boss isn't melee-able.

well lets see.

rets don't stay rooted. the only way to keep a ret in roots is to blanket silence them. guess what else they can't do while silenced? cast wrath.

the boss isn't meleeable.
well a ret can pretty much perform his entire damaging priority queue from range, we literally have 2 abilities that require melee range. one of them can be replaced by a ranged version with a glyph. we can access another ranged ability with wings. rets can deal a LOT of damage from range, all of it instant, ret's ability to deal damage from range is one of it's unique strengths compared to other melee. so why would we stop to cast wrath? no reason.

02/06/2013 04:57 PMPosted by Woaden
How would you feel though if you were given Nourish as your Symbiosis ability but it had a CD and healed for 1/3 of what Flash of Light did? If you can imagine that then you understand what Shadow Priests' Symbiosis Tranq is worth to us.


another heal? in the nature tree? so i won't get locked out of holy? nourish is pretty cheap compared to flash of light. sounds pretty good actually.
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90 Human Priest
12075
02/06/2013 08:40 PMPosted by Idoma
lol. still not impressed. i'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you are not kind of a big deal.

I quite literally wrote the book on Shadow Priest Raiding yet you're still arguing with me about this, like you're somehow better informed than I am about my class. Wow.

My extensive, awe-inspiring and truly epic credentials aside... I really don't think you're getting it: We have actual Priest healing spells that heal for more and do so in a much shorter amount of time. A Shadow Priest who casts Symbiosis Tranq is doing far less healing than they would be if they spent those ~6 seconds casting Priest healing spells. In fact in those ~6 seconds you could do Prayer of Mending -> Binding Heal x4-5 and would be doing around 3x as much healing as you would using Tranq.

What are you not getting about the horrendous throughput of the spell for Shadow Priests? I posted the numbers earlier in the thread and pointed out all the spells you could be casting in that time frame instead and you somehow still insist there's a reason for us to use it...

I'm just really at a loss here. What exactly is your reasoning why a Shadow Priest should be using Symbiosis Tranquility to heal over the many other (far superior) options they have to heal?
Edited by Woaden on 2/6/2013 9:23 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
15120
02/06/2013 09:15 PMPosted by Woaden
I quite literally wrote the book on Shadow Priest Raiding yet you're still arguing with me about this, like you're somehow better informed than I am about my class. Wow.


lol no. whats more, try to wrap your head around how melee works. its hard. i know. melee is complicated.

giving rets wrath is fundamentally flawed, its not an ability that fullfills any purpose or spreads raid utility around. tranq gives you a raid cooldown. raid cooldowns are useful. even if they scale badly, the concept is sound. wrath gives ret....what exactly? rets already excel at dealing damage from range, they don't need anything in that department and as a melee they shouldn't be given a cast time spell.

if you want to get into oppression olympics about anything with rets, thats like a land war in asia, you will lose.
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90 Undead Priest
10815
02/06/2013 11:09 PMPosted by Idoma
tranq gives you a raid cooldown. raid cooldowns are useful.

You either cannot read or are unable to process the meaning of words when they're strung together.

Either way it seems I will be unable to help you understand why a Shadow Priest should never be casting Symbiosis Tranquility under any circumstance, whereas there's at least theoretical situations where a Ret may have a chance to cast Symbiosis Wrath.

Edit: Gosh, I really dislike making posts like this but when I come across someone so insistent on being stubborn in the face of irrefutable facts... well there's bound to be some frustration.
Edited by Woadens on 2/6/2013 11:26 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
02/06/2013 12:18 PMPosted by Daerius
Symbiosis is supposed to be most useful to the casting druid, and provide basically just a conciliatory utility ability to the receiving class.

This is not true in the case of PvP. Some classes get very, very powerful abilities, and others at least get something usable. The only time I use Wrath is when I play Ret-R. Druid 2's and an opponent who has already lost won't leave. We both Wrath him to death, or until he leaves.

What I think many people are missing is the fact that the Druid doesn't get anything out of the trade either. It's a worthless link to both parties, which is a unique situation.

Yep, at least let my druid get something good. She gets disease and poison dispel while a mage gives his druid fucking Ice Block (this is only one of several examples). Why would a druid play with a Ret over a mage? One of the primary reasons to play with a paladin is Hand of Protection, but now a mage gives the druid something better, utility a mage isn't really supposed to provide. It's bullsh!t.
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100 Night Elf Druid
7160
I'd hate to burst everyone's bubble here...

But crying about symbiosis is really not worth the breath.

It's crap unless you're a guardian druid and even then it's only good from a few classes.

It was a mistake. They exhausted all their druid effort in creating some new talents (and stealing some boomkin one's -.-) but they just couldn't think of a baseline talent that could benefit all 4 specs, so hey LET'S TAKE THEM FROM OTHER PEOPLE!

-But uhhh...we already balanced them

-OH WHO CARES LETS MAKE THEM INNEFFECTIVE IN PVE

-What about pvp?

-MAKE IT SO WITHOUT THEM BOOMKIN GET ONE SHOTTED

Honestly ick.
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90 Troll Warlock
11210
What I think many people are missing is the fact that the Druid doesn't get anything out of the trade either. It's a worthless link to both parties, which is a unique situation.


Our Guardian swears by Consecrate for passively picking up add spawns (it's ridiculous on Wind Lord, incidentally). Divine Shield isn't bad for Feral either. I think you'd be hard pressed to say either of those is "worthless".
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
15120
02/06/2013 11:17 PMPosted by Woadens
Either way it seems I will be unable to help you understand why a Shadow Priest should never be casting Symbiosis Tranquility under any circumstance, whereas there's at least theoretical situations where a Ret may have a chance to cast Symbiosis Wrath.


you have it backwards. there is a conceivable situation where a shadowpriest would cast tranq, a situation where a ret would cast wrath does not exist.
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100 Tauren Druid
20625
02/07/2013 08:27 AMPosted by Idoma
a situation where a ret would cast wrath does not exist.


Wrong, I know of two situations where a ret paladin would use wrath in current raiding. First is on heroic zor'lok if he ends up assigned to one of the force and verve bubbles outside of melee range in p2. It happens a lot so our ret paladin can still be useful in the out of range bubble and it does decent damage for him.

The second example is on heroic garalon. The way the debuff works for pheramone kiting usually means melee end up kiting near the end of the fight. He can still do dps to the boss when doing this through wrath.

So just because YOU can't find something to use it for, doesn't mean some ret paladins actually can find a good use for it.

And yes Spriest tranq is worthless. It is better to KILL THE BOSS than to use it .. a feral's terrible tranquility is 5x better than the spriest one which is saying a lot because the feral tranq itself is pretty blegh.
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90 Human Warlock
7110
02/06/2013 11:09 PMPosted by Idoma
tranq gives you a raid cooldown. raid cooldowns are useful


by this logic if wrath were redesigned to be a raid cooldown for ret (no matter how awful it is) that means wrath is good for ret zing i win

raid cooldowns are only useful if they are you know good? which shadow tranq isn't. in the time you are spending channeling tranq you could be doing 10x more healing with pom or flash or anything else really

and yes i know wrath for ret sucks right now so shut the !@#$ up about it both abilities suck just concede that they both suck already god damn
Edited by Basedgodbro on 2/7/2013 10:38 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
18120
02/07/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Basedgodbro
tranq gives you a raid cooldown. raid cooldowns are useful


by this logic if wrath were redesigned to be a raid cooldown for ret (no matter how awful it is) that means wrath is good for ret zing i win

raid cooldowns are only useful if they are you know good? which shadow tranq isn't. in the time you are spending channeling tranq you could be doing 10x more healing with pom or flash or anything else really

and yes i know wrath for ret sucks right now so shut the !@#$ up about it both abilities suck just concede that they both suck already god damn


Just to play devil's advocate here:

-The shadow symbiosis sucks simply due to a numerical issue. You can hotfix those relatively easily

-The Ret symbiosis sucks due to mechanical issues. That requires a major patch to fix.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
Our Guardian swears by Consecrate for passively picking up add spawns (it's ridiculous on Wind Lord, incidentally). Divine Shield isn't bad for Feral either. I think you'd be hard pressed to say either of those is "worthless".

Yeah, I failed to specify that it's specifically Resto Druids with whom it's worthless.
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