Give Ret A Real Symbiosis

24 Tauren Druid
10320
You'd rather have an emergency raid cooldown for heavy aoe damage, that you won't ever use, because it's terrible and everything else you can cast is the better option? I'm at a loss for words, really.
Edited by Arbron on 2/7/2013 1:55 PM PST
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100 Tauren Druid
20150
02/07/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Lobster
Unless your group is abnormally melee heavy, you should probably keep the melee specs in the melee bubble.


You can only have 7 people per bubble in 25 man. We have 2 tanks and 8 melee. 10 ranged and 5 healers. So no, that's normal composition.

02/07/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Lobster
Why are you making a melee spec kite?


heroic mode, the debuff lasts 6 mins. You have to have melee kite otherwise you'd never get anywhere in the fight. We kite last btw.

02/07/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Lobster
There are situations where it can be useful but a ret paladin, as a melee spec, should theoretically never be in those situations.


Goes to show you've never done anything beyond LFR.... HEROIC modes have you doing all sorts of strange things to get the bosses down before enrage.

02/07/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Lobster
I'd rather have another emergency raid cooldown for heavy AOE damage like p2 Bladelord than a melee cast.


So you'd rather have something that is worse than flash of light spam? Yeah no.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
14875
02/06/2013 11:32 AMPosted by Contritus
The move you get is just a bonus. The real point of the move is for the Druid. Also it's been stated, it's great for you during air phases or being rooted in pvp.
The first two sentences of this statement are correct. The last is fatuous callow drivel.


Eh I suppose "great" may have been too strong a word. But hell, my tank Paladin friend can do 50k just spamming that Wrath while in tank gear, on a Ret. Not all that bad, honestly.

Honestly I don't get -anyone-'s gripe with Symbiosis anyways. I get Dash, oh boy. Might be useful in rare circumstances, but then pretty much everything is. Doesn't mean I ever use it. Doesn't mean I -lose- anything by getting it. It would have never been on my spell book and I have to give up nothing to have it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18405
There are situations where it can be useful but a ret paladin, as a melee spec, should theoretically never be in those situations.


Goes to show you've never done anything beyond LFR.... HEROIC modes have you doing all sorts of strange things to get the bosses down before enrage.


Heroic modes have you doing all sorts of things, but none involve putting a melee class in a position to sit and spam wrath.

02/07/2013 02:56 PMPosted by Firekatkid
Honestly I don't get -anyone-'s gripe with Symbiosis anyways. I get Dash, oh boy. Might be useful in rare circumstances, but then pretty much everything is. Doesn't mean I ever use it. Doesn't mean I -lose- anything by getting it. It would have never been on my spell book and I have to give up nothing to have it.


You honestly don't see the benefit of on-demand movement speed? That doesn't eat up a DPS ability cooldown and is off (I believe) the GCD?
Edited by Maxim on 2/7/2013 3:19 PM PST
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100 Tauren Druid
20150
02/07/2013 03:18 PMPosted by Maxim
Heroic modes have you doing all sorts of things, but none involve putting a melee class in a position to sit and spam wrath.


Which goes to show you have no idea. Yes you do have to have melee outside of melee range on occasion.

Would you like bear hug instead? I'm sure you'll find NO use for that, even druids have no use for it... yet one class gets it as their symbo, Would you prefer to trade wrath with them for bear hug? No? Then shush. You get something that is usable at the very least.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
14875
02/07/2013 03:18 PMPosted by Maxim
You honestly don't see the benefit of on-demand movement speed? That doesn't eat up a DPS ability cooldown and is off (I believe) the GCD?


I pretty much only PvE, rarely PvP and I don't have any problem getting out of trouble on my own. The only time it would actually do -me personally- some good would be on Blade Lord.
Like I said though, some peeps could use it in PvP or such.
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90 Undead Priest
10815
02/07/2013 01:54 PMPosted by Arbron
You'd rather have an emergency raid cooldown for heavy aoe damage, that you won't ever use, because it's terrible and everything else you can cast is the better option? I'm at a loss for words, really.

WELCOME TO MY PAIN
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90 Night Elf Mage
10330
Girl you need to calm down. A lot of symbiosis abilities are near-useless. Wrath is just one of them.


That is everyone's point here. Symbiosis abilities are largely not important, because if they were, then it'd make having a druid too important. As a result, most non-tanks could care less about symbiosis. Ret getting wrath is no big deal. It isn't awesome, but I suppose you could find one or two odd uses for it.

If a spec has an issue, buffing its symbiosis ability is a pretty awful way of making them better. Wrath is fine.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
15120
Which goes to show you have no idea. Yes you do have to have melee outside of melee range on occasion.


yes you do. and ret is unique among melee in that it can deal a ton of damage from range with it's own instant casts.

ret probably has the strongest capacity to deal damage from range of any of the melee. so why would you give it a cast time ability when it already deals so much damage with instants?

i can literally think of zero reasons a ret would end up symbiosis-ed on either of those fights you mentioned. there is nothing druids get from paladins that could potentially be useful in either fight.i can on the other hand think of several abilities that would be useful form other classes.

shadow traq would require a minor numbers adjustment, the concept is sound.

ret casting wrath is a fundamentally flawed concept. no amount of tweaking numbers is going to make it work.
Edited by Idoma on 2/7/2013 7:18 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16495
This thread is embarrassing.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
02/07/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Laanah
That is everyone's point here. Symbiosis abilities are largely not important, because if they were, then it'd make having a druid too important. As a result, most non-tanks could care less about symbiosis. Ret getting wrath is no big deal. It isn't awesome, but I suppose you could find one or two odd uses for it.

You can't just ignore PvP.

02/07/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Laanah
If a spec has an issue, buffing its symbiosis ability is a pretty awful way of making them better. Wrath is fine.

I want good synergy with druid, my favorite healer. Is that too much to ask for?
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90 Night Elf Mage
10330
02/08/2013 12:54 AMPosted by Hafleur
I want good synergy with druid, my favorite healer. Is that too much to ask for?


One ability doesn't create synergy. If symbiosis single-handedly made Ret work well with a druid, then that would be a problem. My point, and many others', is that symbiosis is generally not a powerful tool. Shadow Tranq is beyond useless in both PvE and PvP. Monks get bearhug, which is also pretty pathetic.

Symbiosis is a gimmicky spell. It shouldn't be powerful, or it'd be too necessary. Adjusting Ret's symbiosis ability really shouldn't be a priority.
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90 Night Elf Mage
10330
02/08/2013 01:16 AMPosted by Lobster
The druid class would have been FAR better off if Symbiosis was a different ability altogether, like a good defensive cooldown.


Honestly? I probably agree. Particularly for moonkins, symbiosis acts as a powerful defensive CD. I suppose it was added for flavor, but it does create imbalances.

My point, though, is that the recipient class generally doesn't get an important ability. It is kind of a buzz kill, but it seems to be the trend; at least, for non-tanks.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
02/08/2013 01:01 AMPosted by Laanah
One ability doesn't create synergy. If symbiosis single-handedly made Ret work well with a druid, then that would be a problem.

I didn't say Symbiosis single-handedly creates synergy, but why would a R. Druid play arena with a Ret when he receives Ice Block on top of all the mage's other utility? This swings the balance in favor of the mage, and Healing Touch is more useful than Wrath.

02/08/2013 01:21 AMPosted by Laanah
My point, though, is that the recipient class generally doesn't get an important ability. It is kind of a buzz kill, but it seems to be the trend; at least, for non-tanks.

Not always the case in PvP. Solar Beam is sick, rogue gets some kind of Shield Wall, etc.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
7150
02/08/2013 02:32 AMPosted by Hafleur
rogue gets some kind of Shield Wall


Not exactly.

We get Growl. 3 second taunt, 30 seconds of 330% armor, 20% Stam and uncrittable.

Not sure how useful it really is, never used it, but I find it difficult to believe that a Rogue could even keep aggro for the other 27 seconds after the taunt wears off.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Not exactly.

We get Growl. 3 second taunt, 30 seconds of 330% armor, 20% Stam and uncrittable.

Not sure how useful it really is, never used it, but I find it difficult to believe that a Rogue could even keep aggro for the other 27 seconds after the taunt wears off.

Pretty damn good in PvP.
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