Holy Issues: I can't seem to excel anymore.

90 Blood Elf Paladin
12970
As the title says.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Or where I'm making mistakes.
There was once a time when I was a pretty damn good holy paladin.
I mean, I leveled this baby in wrath solely for holy.

It just seems that as of MoP, something hasn't clicked well enough with me or something.
Either my numbers are in the 35-40k hps range, or I'm being outhealed by another holy paladin. I get extremely discouraged when I see priests double any number I come up with. Or when a druid goes just above me.
One thing I've lost in the process of losing my healing touch, is my healing confidence.

I haven't /raided/ hc since the start of MoP. Got up to 25% wipes on Feng, then was 'replaced' because I wasn't putting out equivalent numbers to the disc priest (who was doing 60-70k.)

I don't want to give up on my paladin. I really don't. I love her too much. I want to know what I can do/need to do to fix whatever is wrong.
Edited by Velirris on 1/31/2013 1:36 PM PST
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93 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Without you giving more details it's going to be difficult to offer any concrete advice. Do you have logs? Absent that, can you give your general single/aoe healing strategy? Until we get more information, i'll toss out some basics for ya.

First off the easy stuff...your reforge is a bit odd. You reforged crit into mostly mastery, but then mastery into haste. Rule of thumb: gem for spirit as much as possible, and reforge completely into mastery. The only time you would do a different reforge is if spirit doesn't exist naturally on a piece of gear, in which case you should reforge either crit or haste into spirit.

2nd: healing style.
I know personally the biggest change from cata was the massively increased importance of holy power. You want to be doing everything possible to maximizing your hopo generation, and spending it on eternal flame if you have it talented, or LoD if you don't. A side effect of this is that if you cast Divine Light it should be on the beaconed target for the ToR hopo. Off beacon DL is usually a nono now, as it will both eat your mana and not give you any holy power.

Babysit your holy shock cd. It gives holy power, is cheap, instant and strong output. Get used to anticipating what fillers you can cast such that you delay holy shock as little as possible. Note that infusion of light procs can throw your timing somewhat if you don't account for them.

I could go on, but again without more information i'm not sure what you're having trouble with. Recap: Straighten out your reforge, babysit your hs cd, and focus on your holy power generation and expendature.
Edited by Corvala on 1/31/2013 3:00 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Agreed with Corvala.

I'd like to add:

Got up to 25% wipes on Feng, then was 'replaced' because I wasn't putting out equivalent numbers to the disc priest (who was doing 60-70k.)


It's pretty natural that a Disc Priest is going to be whooping your butt on HPS on every fight except Lei Shi, that's what they do nowadays. Without logs I can't say whether you were pulling your weight or not (it's entirely possible that you weren't), but I literally have never done more HPS than our guilds' Priests except on Tsulong/Lei Shi in Terrace. Except when they're dead, or being trolled: http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg
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90 Draenei Death Knight
6510
Holy Pallies aren't going to be star healers against certain classes. They really aren't the best out of the bunch. But their utility is what makes them stronger.
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93 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Good points being brought up. Our output goes down as the skill of the disc priest goes up. The exception to this rule is on encounters where it is impossible to accurately predict burst damage (lei shi), or fights with consistent enough aoe damage to eat through da/ss and still have health deficits left over (garalon/Hwill). Also tsulong because gimmicky fight is gimmicky. That being said, logs would still be helpful in determining if the disc is just shutting you down or if you need to work on your healing.

Edit: you also mention that you were being beat by a druid. With similar gear, this should rarely be the case, as they are pretty much the anti-disc in their ability to shut down other healers. Were you running with a disc priest and druid at the same time? Maby the druid was just exceptionally good at sniping the leftovers. Need moooore info!
Edited by Corvala on 1/31/2013 4:16 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10215
01/31/2013 03:14 PMPosted by Tailias
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg


8) too funny
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12970
Ok, sorry for the delayed reply. I've been out most of the afternoon and just now getting home.
I'll try to answer you guys' questions as clearly as possible.

01/31/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Corvala
First off the easy stuff...your reforge is a bit odd. You reforged crit into mostly mastery, but then mastery into haste.

At the start of MoP, I was gemming as much spirit as possible, and reforging into mastery with some haste, to get as close to a 2sec cast time as possible. I'll be sure to fix that as soon as I get back on her.

As for logs, I do not have any, unfortunately. At the start of Cataclysm, I tried to run WoL on my computer, but for some reason, it didn't want to cooperate, so I've since given up. I tried to search for my previous guilds logs, but see none. Can't even find them on WoL.

As for healing style, I try to generate as much HoPo as possible. If there's not massive amounts of dmg going out, I'll be HL the OT to keep the shield up, while spamming the MT as well, that way neither of them miss a heal. Everytime I get an DP proc, I pop EF on the tanks>melee>ranged>healers. I've had 8 procs, back to back, once before.

Another thing I meant to add, I've come across many people who want to flaunt meters (hps and healing done) and some that will bicker with them and say hps don't matter, it's the healing done that matters. Personally, I look at both. I probably shouldn't look at either. But meh.
My number one goal is keeping the Tanks then the rest of the raid alive. And I'll do whatever it takes to do so!

In reference to the resto druid beating me, that was recently, in a 10m h pug I had found. I was against another HPally, RDruid. The HPally was doing around 60-80k, the druid was at 50k, and I was at 48k (when we killed it).

Thanks in advance for further help, and thanks for help I've gotten thus far.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Everytime I get an DP proc, I pop EF on the tanks>melee>ranged>healers. I've had 8 procs, back to back, once before.


Keeping a full-strength EF on each tank is usually very important, but the rest is situational. In general the melee tend to take more unavoidable damage (or, at the very least, have a harder time avoiding the avoidable damage) but you should definitely use discretion here.

Another thing I meant to add, I've come across many people who want to flaunt meters (hps and healing done) and some that will bicker with them and say hps don't matter, it's the healing done that matters. Personally, I look at both. I probably shouldn't look at either. But meh.
My number one goal is keeping the Tanks then the rest of the raid alive. And I'll do whatever it takes to do so!


I like your attitude, and that's pretty much what I do in my raids. Healing meters are useful tools, but they also have a lot of context that you need to analyze before you can judge someone's performance. Unless it's LFR, in which case I'm awesome, anyone below me is a bad, and anyone above me is a Disc Priest that needs to be nerfed.

In reference to the resto druid beating me, that was recently, in a 10m h pug I had found. I was against another HPally, RDruid. The HPally was doing around 60-80k, the druid was at 50k, and I was at 48k (when we killed it).


Uhh you're fairly undergeared and don't have a lot of raid experience this tier, if you're going up against players with better gear who know the fights... yeah there's gonna be a discrepancy. I wouldn't feel too bad about that.

I'd just keep practicing. We all started somewhere, and from what I hear pugging on Illidan is a nightmare unless you've already got the fights nailed down and can link every achieve known to man.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12970
01/31/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Tailias
Unless it's LFR, in which case I'm awesome, anyone below me is a bad, and anyone above me is a Disc Priest that needs to be nerfed.

I generally take the same attitude. Whoops.

01/31/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Tailias
pugging on Illidan is a nightmare unless you've already got the fights nailed down and can link every achieve known to man.


Which is why I haven't wanted to since my break from the game. I can't stand pugs. They drive me up a wall. It's either people standing too far apart on chains. Running into frost bombs when it's not blue. OR, my favorite, is people standing right beside Feng, knowing he doesn't throw the shield too far, so the adds get sucked in immediately.
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97 Blood Elf Paladin
17860
lately I find that I rarely use divine light or flash of light. use holy shock as much as possible of course. i'd say healing on hpal is more dynamic than ever. it's hard to say exactly how to heal. for me it changes from boss to boss. like on h garalon i beacon the tank or whatever and then put 1 HP EFs on as many people as possible. light's hammer in ranged. infusion of light procs i usually use holy radiance in ranged and use that 1 HP to get out another EF. have almost gotten 100k hps on that fight, but on another fight i might not do anything like that. like stone guards i beacon one tank and spam holy light / holy shock on the other, maybe throw use EF on random raid members here and there, make sure EF stacks are on tanks... light's hammer in melee.

first i'd make sure you're comfortable healing and have a good set up for raid frames and what not. I just use the default wow raid frames lately, which actually aren't that bad with clique. make sure you're comfortable with your bindings and your paladin in general... things should fall into place...
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Uhhh....

02/01/2013 02:04 AMPosted by Xuzen
lately I find that I rarely use divine light or flash of light


And you have a heroic Lei Shi kill? I'm extremely confused here, how is that fight possible without using Divine Light?

I've noticed myself using Holy Light less and less as my gear improves and as we go deeper into heroic modes. My guild killed Heroic Lei Shi the other day, I was sitting because of the Cogent/AT&T internet snafu, but from what I understand the tank damage is downright absurd at the end. I'm not entirely convinced it's possible to heal that fight on normal without relying heavily on Divine Light/Tower of Radiance. If you're not using your heavy heals on Heroic... you might as well be ret then :-P

like stone guards i beacon one tank and spam holy light / holy shock on the other,


With the huge stacking Spirit buff on Heroic Stone Guards, there's no need to be judicious with mana. It may not be an issue at our kind of gear level, but for somebody who's just starting the heroic content, it is horrid advice to neglect Divine Light and Flash of Light for a fight that's almost entirely centered around heavy tank damage.
Edited by Tailias on 2/1/2013 3:11 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
[quote]
Keeping a full-strength EF on each tank is usually very important, but the rest is situational. In general the melee tend to take more unavoidable damage (or, at the very least, have a harder time avoiding the avoidable damage) but you should definitely use discretion here.


I didn't know that keeping an EF on each tank was very important? Wouldn't doing so potentially waste the actual heal of it? Or is the HoT by far more beneficial and worth wasting the heal if the tank isn't taking more damage than a HL would cover?
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90 Tauren Paladin
8040
Well i cant say a lot for this xpac as far as raid experiance i can say that reforge/gems/chants are key to the new hpally set up. I didnt reforge out of crit just as getting the crit numbers is a way to save mana in long fights. I did however reforge out of haste into mastery as completely as i could and grab spirit everywhere. So its Intel/spirit to comfort then Mastery>Crit>Haste. Ive found this set up keeps me from going oom and all the heroics and (current lfr MSV since im not grinding dailies on this guy) are easy to heal and keep the team rolling.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11160
Hey velirris you have gotten a lot of good advice on this thread. I am currently at work and cant check out your character, but when I get home I will have a look at her. one thing you mentioned is considering the meters. Meters are a very helpful tool but you are forgetting to look at one i consider the most important... overheals. If other healers are beating you to the punch you cant really do much about it. I actually just helped another hpally get back on track recently so I know how frustrating this can really be. They had actually given up. If you would like I wouldnt mind running with you in a lfr of even some of the heroics to get a feel for your healing. With no data it is just too hard to trouble shoot. If you want add me Foreverfoxy1555.
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93 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Just a couple points I'd like to add to/clarify.

01/31/2013 09:35 PMPosted by Velirris
If there's not massive amounts of dmg going out, I'll be HL the OT to keep the shield up, while spamming the MT as well, that way neither of them miss a heal.

HL filler is not a bad way to go during light damage. I believe, and someone correct me if i'm wrong, that on-beacon DL filler is very similar hpm to off-beacon hl and (slightly) higher output, but it comes with a significant caveat: you need to both have a tank/beacon swap to someone in need of the larger DL heal, and you need to intelligently use your hopo you just generated without it being mostly overheal. Short version: HL filler off-beacon is easier to use effectively, whereas DL filler is higher theoretical hps but harder to use optimally.

Everytime I get an DP proc, I pop EF on the tanks>melee>ranged>healers. I've had 8 procs, back to back, once before.

Keeping a full-strength EF on each tank is usually very important, but the rest is situational. In general the melee tend to take more unavoidable damage (or, at the very least, have a harder time avoiding the avoidable damage) but you should definitely use discretion here.

I want to emphasize this: The best targets for EF are...the best targets for EF. The way raid damage goes out these days I rarely see a big difference in damage taken between ranged and melee. Use EF on people that need it. It's completely situational. Do try to avoid overwriting if at all possible though...this is a big reason why (especially in 10mans) I prefer using a full 3hp EF. Someone that was low will not be kept up with 1hp EF, and will probably need extra attention soon afterwards. If this extra attention comes in the form of another EF, you just lost a lot of the benefit of the original cast. Again, totally situational.

Edit: somehow I screwed up the nested quote and response. Blast!
Edited by Corvala on 2/1/2013 2:05 PM PST
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93 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Sorry for double post, but instead of working, I was thinking about the hpm difference between holy light and divine light fillers and figured it was worth a bit more explanation. DL (obviously) costs more then HL to cast. The way LD makes up this difference is in providing extra free healing via hopo. Straightforward enough. Problem is, hpm is tied into how many hopo you choose to spend per EF cast. If you were to alternate DL-EF-DL-EF etc, ~1/3 of your time would be spent casting a free heal. If, however, you were to cast DL-DL-DL-EF etc, only ~1/7th of your time is spent casting free heals. Obviously you would never do the latter, as you would be weaving in HS as well, but point being, on-beacon DL ends up higher hpm with 1hp EF then banking it to 3hp.

/semi-offtopic ramble
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90 Human Paladin
15450
Agreed with Corvala.

I'd like to add:
Got up to 25% wipes on Feng, then was 'replaced' because I wasn't putting out equivalent numbers to the disc priest (who was doing 60-70k.)


It's pretty natural that a Disc Priest is going to be whooping your butt on HPS on every fight except Lei Shi, that's what they do nowadays. Without logs I can't say whether you were pulling your weight or not (it's entirely possible that you weren't), but I literally have never done more HPS than our guilds' Priests except on Tsulong/Lei Shi in Terrace. Except when they're dead, or being trolled: http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1305/spiritshelltroll.jpg


Not on Lei Shi hard mode. Not when they can generate 100 - 150k hps using the same amount of mana expenditure as us casting Holy Light/Holy Shock.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13900
I still lol when they pop SS for a special and it's HIDE mwhahahahahaha
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12970
First, I'd like to say thank you to everyone for all the helpful advice!
I'm going to be doing some work/rearranging of my play style and see where I stand, based off the advice I've received
.
Sorry for double post, but instead of working, I was thinking about the hpm difference between holy light and divine light fillers and figured it was worth a bit more explanation. DL (obviously) costs more then HL to cast. The way LD makes up this difference is in providing extra free healing via hopo. Straightforward enough. Problem is, hpm is tied into how many hopo you choose to spend per EF cast. If you were to alternate DL-EF-DL-EF etc, ~1/3 of your time would be spent casting a free heal. If, however, you were to cast DL-DL-DL-EF etc, only ~1/7th of your time is spent casting free heals. Obviously you would never do the latter, as you would be weaving in HS as well, but point being, on-beacon DL ends up higher hpm with 1hp EF then banking it to 3hp.

/semi-offtopic ramble


Generally speaking, I don't cast a 1hp EF. I prefer to get a 3hp EF off. And with my luck with DP procs (Knock on wood), that's what I seem to have up all the time. As it was pointed out earlier, prioritize EF casts based on who is taking dmg, that's also fitted into my priority. When there's no dmg, it's just the rest of the raid because hey, free hot, why not use it. But when there's plenty of dmg, it's tanks>whoever falls behind on dmg taken.

Another thing I've thought of, when I was raiding at the start of MoP, my activity, according to WoL never fell below 100%. So... yeah.

Hope everyone has a great evening/weekend (I know I will be, snowing in Chicago! Whee). I again, appreciate all the advice I've received.
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90 Human Paladin
5780
I had the same problem, but in pvp. It's all the same spells, but there's just something off about it from cata. It just feels weird now O.o I dun like it.
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