is anyone gonna keep playing disc 5.2?

90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Also from this thread I learned that I am terrible :(

Brb reforging mastery and rebinding my entire keyboard to PoH.


You're not terrible, you're just (at best) average compared to Poena. Obviously.

EDIT:

02/09/2013 06:45 PMPosted by Amabella
For reference, with raid buffs but no procs or other modifiers my PoH on ptr heals for a little over 38k noncrit.


What I was getting at was that either something was bugged on the PTR regarding PoH, or Tiriel was deliberately underreporting the size of their PoHs in 503 gear to make the situation seem more dire than it actually is. Considering your returns on the PTR are correct, and Tiriel cannot simply be mistaken as midway through the discussion they went on the PTR to reconfirm the numbers (while hedging their bets with some talk of glitchy SP values), I lean towards the latter.
Edited by Mahourai on 2/9/2013 6:54 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Disc in 5.2 is in a bad place because it invalidates our mastery.

Disc is in a bad place in 5.2 because it says AoE heals should only be cast when our other spells are on CD, and the rest of the time we should be using single target heals to AoE.

Disc is in a bad place because we will be forced to rely on crit and haste. If the same were to happen to Holy Paladin's and the majority of their mastery became useless (and their mastery stopped contributing to their output in a meaningful way), I can promise you that there would be a huge uproar also.


He isn't entirely wrong though. We're looking at a shift from PoH spam into greater usage of Atonement, especially with the 20% buff to Penance. In this regard, Crit will actually be a decent stat in 5.2.

I do agree that something has to be done about our Mastery though. The fact that it barely contributes to SS and that Mastery stacking results in lower overall DA and SS numbers than Crit stacking is an issue. It makes absolutely no sense that a Disc Priest will have lower overall absorbs from stacking Mastery as compared to Crit.

The other gripe is that for Mastery stacking to even be viable, it is going to require extremely high usage of PW:S, something that directly contradicts Blizzard's intent for us to use our entire toolkit in a balanced manner.

As it stands, Crit will boost our overall healing and absorbs much more than Mastery will in 5.2. Our overall numbers may be fine if we stack Crit, but the disparity between the secondary stats makes the Disc toolkit feel rather disjointed and limited. There needs to be a more even trade off - Mastery for stronger absorbs (mainly SS and PW:S) and Crit for higher average healing output and greater frequency of DA procs.

Ultimately, it would be nice if Mastery were to affect SS to a greater extent. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen unless SS or the way our Mastery works are overhauled. Until then, I guess it's time to get used to Crit being our premier stat.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/9/2013 7:07 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
Tiriel wasn't using inner fire. Under that assumption the numbers match up.

Also keep in mind Poena appears to do 25mans. If I was raiding 25mans I'd probably be full mastery smashing my face into PoH too.
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90 Human Priest
11345
Actually Poena is full crit on armory right now.

Looks like it is for doing challenge modes, but it still made me lol.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
02/09/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Amabella
Also keep in mind Poena appears to do 25mans. If I was raiding 25mans I'd probably be full mastery smashing my face into PoH too.


Same here. I was flippant with Tiriel but the gulf between 10 and 25 roles as a disc priest is really big.

That's still no justification to go full bore "you're horrendous if you reforge crit, you got carried you baddie" etc just because that distinction escapes you, of course. While attempting to blow me up with some sweet WoW Progress and achievement links he probably noticed I only raid 10s. At no point did I ever disparage priests focusing mastery in current content, raiding 25s or otherwise.

Actually Poena is full crit on armory right now.

Looks like it is for doing challenge modes, but it still made me lol.


I'm just going to assume I literally shamed his reforging into changing itself.
Edited by Mahourai on 2/9/2013 7:05 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Crit is great. It's not "better" than Mastery, but it's an enjoyable stat that functions. 10M Disc has a nice luxury of being able to optimize their playstyle however they feel. You could gear in any way imaginable and probably see success.

If I was 25m, I would be at like 14k Spirit, stacking mastery and rolling my face across my keyboard mashing PoH all day. 10m can compete without such a horrible way to play.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Tiriel wasn't using inner fire. Under that assumption the numbers match up.

Also keep in mind Poena appears to do 25mans. If I was raiding 25mans I'd probably be full mastery smashing my face into PoH too.


No, my Spellpower isn't increasing on the PTR, even though it should be going up by at least ~400 due to the tier gear I purchased off the vendor. I don't have it gemmed and enchanted yet, which should push it up still more. Still, it is healing exactly the same as my PoH heals on live, despite the fact that I have more Spellpower. So I think it's bugged.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
For the record I obviously don't "support" Mastery's contribution to Discipline healing being nerfed into the floor. I play a freakin' Disc priest so I obviously have a vested interest in Mastery being a great stat for us. I think, rather than letting our mastery lie fallow thanks to balance concerns, it should be made more effective or redesigned in other, less overpowered ways. I'm just speaking from the realist perspective that Mastery being crippled is not Discipline being crippled, nor is a neutered Mastery unique to Discipline, even among healers. All things in balance it is simply another paradigm shift, which can be unpleasant but does not signal the death of the class, especially one with as much utility as Disc.
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90 Human Priest
11345
Hmm, my spellpower changes on PTR reflect gear changes, although the gear itself does not properly show gems / enchants / upgrades unless looked at through the socketing or compare interfaces (shift + mouseover your item).

Due to randomness in heal size you aren't going to be able to notice a difference of 400 spellpower without casting an awful lot of PoH's and keeping track of the average heal size. Try taking off half your gear and testing it.
Edited by Amabella on 2/9/2013 7:28 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Hmm, my spellpower changes on PTR reflect gear changes, although the gear itself does not properly show gems / enchants / upgrades unless looked at through the socketing or compare interfaces (shift + mouseover your item).

Due to randomness in heal size you aren't going to be able to notice a difference of 400 spellpower without casting an awful lot of PoH's and keeping track of the average heal size. Try taking off half your gear and testing it.


I did. It changes when I add the pieces on one by one but only up to 24,190 Spellpower, so I have no more spellpower (according to the paper doll) with my current gear on than I do when I have the new gear on, and the heals are exactly the same regardless of the gear I have on. They're no greater or lesser. The only explanation I have is that all of my tier pieces are upgraded.

That was a run-on sentence, but yeah. I'm in between pulls because apparently all of my guildies forgot how to do heroic blade lord tonight.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
I did. It changes when I add the pieces on one by one but only up to 24,190 Spellpower, so I have no more spellpower (according to the paper doll) with my current gear on than I do when I have the new gear on, and the heals are exactly the same regardless of the gear I have on. They're no greater or lesser. The only explanation I have is that all of my tier pieces are upgraded.

That was a run-on sentence, but yeah. I'm in between pulls because apparently all of my guildies forgot how to do heroic blade lord tonight.


Given your posts on the subject it is very uncharitable of me to assume that you were deliberately misrepresenting the status of Discipline, and I only did so due to the quality of the discussion in this thread (or lack thereof). Sorry. You were probably legitimately running into a bug. That being said, PoH is going to end up a great deal more effective than your PTR testing indicated, and acting as a filler spell after Cascade, PoM and offensive Penance are on CD is a fine place for it, especially compared to a 25 priority of Always Be Castin' This, which is obviously unsustainable as a design.
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90 Human Priest
11345
And gemmed? It might be an amazing coincidence that your spellpower in current gear is the same as in new gear with no gems.

I guess you'll know for sure once you gem/enchant, or get flask / food / raidbuff.

Edit: My usual response to thinking something is broken is to test it with no gear, then add a piece of gear with only one stat (usually a trinket) to test if it still matches the expected value from the spell formula.
Edited by Amabella on 2/9/2013 7:45 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
And gemmed? It might be an amazing coincidence that your spellpower in current gear is the same as in new gear with no gems.

I guess you'll know for sure once you gem/enchant, or get flask / food / raidbuff.


What I'm saying is, in my new gear, even ungemmed and enchanted, I should have more spellpower (I did the math, added all of it up manually to see the difference between my fully enchanted and gemmed current gear and the tier gear I bought off the vendor in Townlong Steppes). However, the paper doll does not show that I have any more spellpower in that gear than I do now. My healing tooltips do not change, and I am not seeing any difference in the actual healing.

Additionally, as I stated earlier, the set bonuses may be bugged. At least the 4pc is not proccing 40% of the time. It's taking 5-6 casts of Penance to get a proc, in comparison to Divine Insight for Disc (which also has a 40% chance of proccing) which, on average, takes between 3-4 casts at most. It could be really ugly RNG, however.

02/09/2013 07:39 PMPosted by Amabella
Edit: My usual response to thinking something is broken is to test it with no gear, then add a piece of gear with only one stat (usually a trinket) to test if it still matches the expected value from the spell formula.


I did. It still won't increase my spellpower past that point, and I don't know why that is. I'm going to test it after I gem and enchant it.
Edited by Tiriél on 2/9/2013 7:47 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
16410
Actually Poena is full crit on armory right now.

Looks like it is for doing challenge modes, but it still made me lol.


Because all I do in Challenge modes is smash my DPS buttons 80% of the time :D
Vs. 10H or 25H raids where I smash PoH 80% of the time.

02/09/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Amabella
Also keep in mind Poena appears to do 25mans. If I was raiding 25mans I'd probably be full mastery smashing my face into PoH too.


Also. I smash PoH for the Majority of 10man Heroics I've done with the exclusion of Elegon and Wind Lord during the Recklessness. The one shot mechanics of the majority of Heroic Raids require players to be at full health and right now, Disc does that better than others. The problem is, unless Heroic raids change in 5.2, Disc will fail in that job (and we all know they won't).

If Disc isn't going to be able to absorb in a large scale in 5.2, then it needs competitive healing (actual health bars go up). A simple solution would be to make PoH a smart heal unless under the effects of SS. However given how drastically Blizzard is changing our class, they should do some drastic changes elsewhere and give us proper spell interaction and a proper toolkit.
Edited by Poena on 2/9/2013 11:02 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
16410
02/09/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Amabella
Also keep in mind Poena appears to do 25mans. If I was raiding 25mans I'd probably be full mastery smashing my face into PoH too.


Was looking at your reforge and some of your logs and spell selection. Very nice! Smite4Prezident in 2016! Comparing our logs, I'm almost able to do similar output as you with a full mastery reforge spamming PoH (vs. you primarily spamming atonement and a crit reforge), but I'm also needing more mana to do so. Of course your gear is also significantly better than mine. Honestly I bet you could crush even harder with a full mastery gear set (gems + items + reforge) as you could likely maintain that level of PoH spam for a full duration of a fight in 10man.

That being said, I might play with my crit reforge on Monday while we work on Heroic Will (10m) just cause it'll help get adds down quicker and healing is pretty light.
Edited by Poena on 2/10/2013 10:20 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
02/09/2013 11:19 PMPosted by Poena
That being said, I might play with my crit reforge on Monday while we work on Heroic Will (10m) just cause it'll help get adds down quicker and healing is pretty light.


Sup Poena. I was just wondering, since you're posting in this thread again, if you can explain why your first instinct in having a discussion with me about priest reforging was to lie about my progress and then link WoW Progress and hope I wouldn't call you on it. Any explanation of your blatant lies about what bosses my priest was defeating when would be appreciated.

02/09/2013 11:19 PMPosted by Poena
Honestly I bet you could crush even harder with a full mastery gear set (gems + items + reforge) as you could likely maintain that level of PoH spam for a full duration of a fight in 10man.


Wow it's amazing how different two people talking about crit reforging can get treated by you when one of them is obviously more progressed than you are.
Edited by Mahourai on 2/10/2013 11:31 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
13730
this thread

lol

/popcorn
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90 Human Priest
11345
02/04/2013 07:45 PMPosted by Amabella
This is also based on the assumption that the 3rd heal is a smart heal, which I have not tested yet. If it just hits the closest target or something, it will not be anywhere near as useful.


Looks like the 3rd Binding Heal hit is not smart. I'll test it some more later under more controlled situations, but it sure looks like it just heals someone close, even if they are already at 100% and another player within 20 yards needs healing.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
02/10/2013 01:43 PMPosted by Amabella
Looks like the 3rd Binding Heal hit is not smart. I'll test it some more later under more controlled situations, but it sure looks like it just heals someone close, even if they are already at 100% and another player within 20 yards needs healing.


That's really unfortunate. There's really no reason to introduce a glyph like that and have it be a stupid heal. Someone should use Twitter to ask if this functionality is intended or whether it's just not smart yet on this iteration.



It's amazing how often he is wrong.


And yet Blizz continues to let him dictate the direction of the game


He is just the public face of the development team. Where people get the idea that balance is nothing more than Greg Street shooting vodka in his cubicle randomly pulling levers is beyond me.
Edited by Mahourai on 2/10/2013 1:52 PM PST
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