is anyone gonna keep playing disc 5.2?

90 Pandaren Priest
7670
To be fair, there's a bug on the PTR that makes Inner Focus sometimes give 100% crit on more than one spell which is inflating Disc output a bit. However, I am seeing logs with only 2% uptime on that Inner Focus buff where Disc is still more than 20% ahead of other healers in 10 man (presumably it would be a larger gap in 25 man).

We need to see more numbers, but I tend to agree that Disc still hasn't been nerfed sufficiently. The nature of absorb based healing, how well it scales, and how much it suppresses other healers means that Disc output on fights that people are just learning should be at or near the bottom. If it's at or near the top on progression/new fights like it STILL appears to be, it will be dominant once people get gear and fight damage patterns are more predictable.


Link the logs whereby Disc is ahead by 20% with ony 2% uptime on that IF bug if you're going to sprout such nonsense. I wouldn't call the IF bug increasing the output of our PoH by at least 3 fold inflating our output 'a bit', but it's quite clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

Since you like looking at logs, would you care to comment on the fact that IH is doing a ton of passive absorbs right now and will probably surpass DA post 5.2? Do you think that Holy Paladins need nerfs too then?

Also, your concerns about scaling are so unfounded as SS no longer scales multiplicatively with both Crit and Mastery, and if a Disc goes for Crit to boost SS, then their PW:S/DA will be correspondingly weaker. No other healer has that kind of trade off.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
1. Disc
2. Holy (-13%)
3. Paladin (-18%)
4. Monk (-22%)
5. Shaman (-30%)
6. Druid (-34%)


Uh, a 35% nerf to Disc as you've acknowledged would put Disc dead last, with ALL the other healers going up by at least 5%, yet you want further nerfs to Disc?
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
Tiberria, I never said it didn't show up. I said it doesn't show up as obviously. Shaman >healing< utility doesn't operate the same way as Disc >healing< utility. Our absorbs are our most prominent utility (above even the excellent Barrier and Pain Suppression), and they're pulling double duty because they provide both that utility and absurd healing. They're a constant in our current healing.

Shaman healing utility, including HTT and Ascendance based healing, is amazing in a completely different, less in-your-face way. It absolutely makes a difference in the course of a fight, but because it doesn't have the option of suppressing healing, it's not going to be so readily recognized.
Edited by Elethia on 2/3/2013 7:28 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
What we need is an encounter where everyone gets some absurd amount of hp (like boss level) and the raid takes completely consistent and unhealable damage for the entire fight. You have to burn the boss down before the raid dies.

There'd be no overheal and all specs would go for max output. Whatever class was on top would face the biggest avalance of forum tears in history.

It would be awesome.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Of course that makes Disc AoE weaker than that of every other healer (possibly except Paladins), but the reality is, Disc AoE SHOULD be weak. You can't have the best single target/one tank output, plus absorbs AND also have AoE output that is competitive with the other specs unless you want to give those absorbs and that level of single target longevity/throughput to every one.


Except we don't have the best single target/one tank output? A Druid's Regrowth heals for as much as my GHeal, is as efficient and has a 1.5s cast time.

You're also arguing to suppress Disc's AoE based on a really narrow niche. The only way to justify neutering Disc's AoE is if the tank were to somehow take as much damage as the raid combined. After all, what's the point of having the 'best' single target if there isn't even enough damage to require such high healing?
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
02/03/2013 07:15 PMPosted by Ceddya
Of course that makes Disc AoE weaker than that of every other healer (possibly except Paladins), but the reality is, Disc AoE SHOULD be weak. You can't have the best single target/one tank output, plus absorbs AND also have AoE output that is competitive with the other specs unless you want to give those absorbs and that level of single target longevity/throughput to every one.


Except we don't have the best single target/one tank output? A Druid's Regrowth heals for as much as my GHeal, is as efficient and has a 1.5s cast time.

You're also arguing to suppress Disc's AoE based on a really narrow niche. The only way to justify neutering Disc's AoE is if the tank were to somehow take as much damage as the raid combined. After all, what's the point of having the 'best' single target if there isn't even enough damage to require such high healing?


You can argue that Healing Surge and/or Greater Healing Wave with Tidal Waves up is faster and close to as efficient as Greater Heal as well, but it doesn't really show the full picture. Are you factoring in Grace when comparing Regrowth with Greater Heal? Are you factoring in the fact that GHeal has a chance to proc DA, whereas Regrowth really only offers the base spell (aside from refreshing Harmony, which is near automatic)? Are you factoring in that Disc has significantly more mana regen than Druids do and can sustain casting Greater/Flash type heals for a much longer duration than a Druid could without going OOM?
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
OMG, Tiberria Uses Raidbots. SHE MUST BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME AND CAN NEVER BE WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING!!! She Must be a god!


All that you are doing now is trolling/borderline personal attacks. I never said that Raidbots shows 100% of the picture. However, it shows as accurate an aggregate of throughput across classes as you are going to get. I fail to see why that is automatically dismissed as part of a class balance discussion. Should we just ignore all numbers altogether and only discuss the "feel" of specs and how they feel compared to other specs when trying to theorycraft class balance?
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
Disc - 62,926
Druid - 46,974

(62,926-46,974)/46,974 = 0.33959211

Disc output is 33.959% higher than Druid output.


Let's nerf Disc by 30% really quick.

62,926 * .3 = 18,877.8
62,926 - 18,877.8 = 44,048.2

What about 35%?

62,926 * .35 = 22,024.1
62,926 - 22,024.1 = 40,901.9

Percentages are ambiguous because you need to know exactly what values are being used, and I disagree with your choice in using the lower variable because it very much skews the information in your favor.

Let me put it this way:

Do you understand the difference between these two statements?

"Nerf Disc by 35%."
"Nerf Disc by 35% of Druid output."

35% of Druid output is 16,440.9.
62,926 - 16,440.9 = 46,485.1

Using Druids as your benchmark doesn't make sense because they aren't the ones operating at 100%. You're basically using the math of the second statement while pushing the first as what should actually happen. Maybe you don't realize it, or maybe you're perfectly aware. Either way, bad show.
Edited by Elethia on 2/3/2013 7:32 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
02/03/2013 07:27 PMPosted by Tiberria
OMG, Tiberria Uses Raidbots. SHE MUST BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME AND CAN NEVER BE WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING!!! She Must be a god!


All that you are doing now is trolling/borderline personal attacks. I never said that Raidbots shows 100% of the picture. However, it shows as accurate an aggregate of throughput across classes as you are going to get. I fail to see why that is automatically dismissed as part of a class balance discussion. Should we just ignore all numbers altogether and only discuss the "feel" of specs and how they feel compared to other specs when trying to theorycraft class balance?


First off, Im sorry about the personal attack, it was childish and I shouldnt of done it.

Secondly, I also look at Raidbots, but I dont think we should be entirely using it. While the numbers may be close, in most raids any healer will suffice, and once the Disc nerfs come in, it will bring more balance to healing as a whole.

Thirdly, we all have to remember that healing raids is a team effort. You are never healing by yourself, you always have a partner (or two, or 4 in 25m) so while numbers and ranks do come into play A LITTLE, they dont always reflect everything.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
You can argue that Healing Surge and/or Greater Healing Wave with Tidal Waves up is faster and close to as efficient as Greater Heal as well, but it doesn't really show the full picture. Are you factoring in Grace when comparing Regrowth with Greater Heal? Are you factoring in the fact that GHeal has a chance to proc DA, whereas Regrowth really only offers the base spell (aside from refreshing Harmony, which is near automatic)? Are you factoring in that Disc has significantly more mana regen than Druids do and can sustain casting Greater/Flash type heals for a much longer duration than a Druid could without going OOM?


Are you accounting for Living Seed? Are you accounting for Nature's Swiftness? Are you accounting for the fact that LBx3 and Rejuv act as good buffers for spike damage. You also seem to have forgotten all about Clearcasting, which is effectively a Rapture like proc for Druids.

The point is, if you're going to make such wild claims that Disc Priests have the best single-target, at least back it up with actual numbers.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/3/2013 7:31 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
17050
Things to consider when looking at healer balance.

How many players are playing the class?
What healing comps are being used?
What are people doing with the class?
How many guilds are using said class?
Are there any outliers in either direction?

All of this is information that we do NOT have access to. Blizzard does. Raid bots does not have everything that needs to be looked at. This is why raid bots has no place in this discussion, or any discussion, really.

And really, to come in here and say "let's just nerf disc priests by 35%" is... nonsensical at best. Disc priests aren't such huge outliers (while they are super powerful) that they need over-the-top nerfs.
Edited by Mist on 2/3/2013 7:41 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165
What we need is an encounter where everyone gets some absurd amount of hp (like boss level) and the raid takes completely consistent and unhealable damage for the entire fight. You have to burn the boss down before the raid dies.

There'd be no overheal and all specs would go for max output. Whatever class was on top would face the biggest avalance of forum tears in history.

It would be awesome.


Part of the reason that's never (realistically) going to happen is because as soon as Blizzard looked at the statistics on healers vs each other for that fight they'd scrap it before it even made Beta. It's been shown time and again in the past that if a fight caters to a very certain attribute of healing (sustain, max HPS, absorbs), rather than the overall kit of each healer, it always ends up being horribly unbalanced, legendary examples that we still remember expansions later (Sunwell, Firelands). Healers just aren't balanced well enough for that type of thing, due to class flavor or whatever else.

It sounds fun I admit, but the blow-back wouldn't be. I personally think Shaman were paying Sunwell tax years after the fact, although Blizzard would never admit it. Classes as a whole just don't ask to be put that high on a pedestal, cause the inevitable fallout afterwards can be...rough.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 2/3/2013 7:47 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Things to consider when looking at healer balance.

How many players are playing the class?
What healing comps are being used?
What are people doing with the class?
How many guilds are using said class?
Are there any outliers in either direction?

All of this is information that we do NOT have access to. Blizzard does. Raid bots does not have everything that needs to be looked at. This is why raid bots has no place in this discussion, or any discussion, really.

And really, to come in here and say "let's just nerf disc priests by 35%" is... nonsensical at best. Disc priests aren't such huge outliers (while they are super powerful) that they need over-the-top nerfs.


Raidbots does have most of that. Here is percentage representation by healing spec, which reflects how often each healer is being used.,.

25H:
Paladin - 24%
Shaman - 23%
Disc - 23%
Druid - 13%
Monk - 11%
Holy - 5%

10H:
Disc - 25%
Paladin - 25%
Shaman - 20%
Druid - 16%
Monk - 10%
Holy - 3%

When you look at the numbers (and combine Holy and Disc), Priests are the most played healing class. However, that's to be expected with 2 of their 3 spec options being healing options. Paladins and Shaman are pretty close. Druids are the only outlier among the traditional 4 healing classes. Monk representation being low is probably not that surprising for a brand new class in its first tier of existence.

That said, I question how relevant this is. For one thing, outside of top 20 World guilds, I don't necessarily think that class balance is that big of a factor in raid comp. Most guilds, even in the top 30 US don't have huge benches or huge armies of mandatory raid geared alts to be able to class stack and make whatever raid comp you want. You have the players that you have.

Also, GC has actually talked about the class representation issue on Twitter quite a bit and about how he doesn't really buy it being that relevant in terms of class balance. Some of the things he has talked about on Twitter or the forums in the past
-Ret Pallies have always been very highly played (at least since the end of BC), even when they were absolutely terrible (in T11)
-Rogues always are a little played class, even when they are topping DPS meters
-They tried buffing Feral tanks on the premise that no one was using them. The result was they were OP, but still had very low representation.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
17050
I can promise you 100% that raidbots is not accurate at all.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
7725
DID SOMEONE SAY RAIDBOTS?

#1 HEALER NORTH AMERICA H 10 GARALON BASED MISTWEAVER
SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG IMDABES
Edited by Kungfuwaifu on 2/3/2013 8:11 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
02/03/2013 08:02 PMPosted by Mist
I can promise you 100% that raidbots is not accurate at all.


It's as accurate as the numbers that are feeding into it, which is every guild that has public WoL. Even during progression, there aren't that many guilds that have private logs.

What makes you think that it is not accurate, and do you have any evidence to the contrary?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/03/2013 08:14 PMPosted by Tiberria
I can promise you 100% that raidbots is not accurate at all.


It's as accurate as the numbers that are feeding into it, which is every guild that has public WoL. Even during progression, there aren't that many guilds that have private logs.

What makes you think that it is not accurate, and do you have any evidence to the contrary?


For one thing, there are many guilds that don't log at all.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
02/03/2013 08:36 PMPosted by Tiriél


It's as accurate as the numbers that are feeding into it, which is every guild that has public WoL. Even during progression, there aren't that many guilds that have private logs.

What makes you think that it is not accurate, and do you have any evidence to the contrary?


For one thing, there are many guilds that don't log at all.


I haven't really heard of a guild that attempts to be competitive even on a realm level that doesn't run logs. It's almost mandatory as a tool to fix problems. I would be shocked if there were any guild in the top 200 US that doesn't run regular WoL.
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90 Tauren Druid
9090
I'm getting so sick of this. Why would you reroll because you're no longer flavor of the moment status? If everyone did that there would only be 3 classes, a healer, a tank and a dps.

Disc priests will still be OP in 5.2. The nerfs aren't that bad, they will still probably be the easy mode healer.


There is a big difference between changing a play style and flavor of the month. Im not particularly happy with being forced to go atonement. Arguably its considered mandatory now but its still a option not to use it.

God forbid anyone play more than 1 toon at max level.


What did i just read? Take off the rose tinted glasses disc is still going to extremely good in 5.2 DA proc'ing 50% of every PoH tack on mastery it is too strong they had to change it.

I may be wrong, but hasn't mastery already been removed from SS in a hotfix a while back and it's just tooltip udates in the patch? But either way mastery working for a CD was wrong so they had to change it. It's still going to be on a 1 minute CD making it extremely effective live the disc priests are trivializing certain mechanics no healer should be able to do that.

And yeah mechanical issuesussususes every healer has them.

But you sound like a FOTM player CYA.
Edited by Lìfendeath on 2/3/2013 8:45 PM PST
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