New Grand Crusader change, what do you think?

90 Human Priest
13280
Paladin
To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.

Adding link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811342046#2
Edited by Milktea on 2/4/2013 1:27 PM PST
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100 Draenei Paladin
17310
I think they should just pull up their pants and take the dive into fan nerd rage that nerfing Haste for Prot will get them.

This change will make Parry and Dodge a bit more desirable in the Active Mitigation model but it does nothing for the concerns they had about gear competition and the like.
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90 Human Paladin
11825
Agreed. Removing Haste as an option of Prot pallies wouldn't be the end of the world.

I appreciate we finally have a mechanic that works off dodge/parry. I hope this change sticks.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Interesting. It would also be a decent indirect buff to AoE damage, I'd guess. More enemies = more incoming attacks = more dodges/parries = more AS.

On the other hand it does not play nice with any situation where you aren't getting meleed. Tank swaps, casters, etc.

I'm not sure if I like the implementation, but it may be enough to make haste no longer the best stat available. Dodge/parry already aren't drastically behind, from what I understand.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15765
What you guys are failing to see is that it means no more Grand Crusader procs for half of a 2 tank fight.

It is a huge nerf.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14550
I would have preferred they make it so dodge / parry give a passive haste bonus with haste scaling much lower, but this has the potential to work out even better for burst purposes with multiple adds when we'll have higher amounts of vengeance (Mel'jarak, Shek'zeer come to mind).

Edit: Was thinking of the wrong talent. Took out that small portion of the post.
Edited by Yov on 2/5/2013 12:21 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
0
That is EXACTLY what I proposed be changed on the subject. Glad to know I made a difference.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11265
this is a st8 up nerfif you think about it if you are going hit and exp cap mastery then at most u have 30% parry dodge added up so 30% of that mean its going to proc about 3% vrs the old 20% Grand Crusader,and that when u are tanking.I love the idea that its doing something with our dodge parry but i think they should just rework our mastery to add a few sec to sheild of the rightous buff at so much mastery, cause most of the tank items have mastery on it or could be reforge into mastery after u cap hit and exp.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6480
Thats neat.

I am happy haste is going the way of the Buffalo.

While i like the affect haste has on tanking rotation and mitigation it has always bothered me that i needed to get ret gear to get that stat, however.

Tanking gear should be good for tanking, imo.
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Quite honestly I looked at it and thought it could be worse. I dont mind the change too much, but magic fights might be a bit trickier. Luckily unglyphed Divine Protection gives a 40% magic defense on a min cooldown and Hand of Purity is going to 30 sec with 10% additional damage absorbed.

I like it will help with adds, but I think if they made Avenger Shield always proc HoPo it might be a change that I could let it slide completely.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
20220
Thats neat.

I am happy haste is going the way of the Buffalo.

While i like the affect haste has on tanking rotation and mitigation it has always bothered me that i needed to get ret gear to get that stat, however.

Tanking gear should be good for tanking, imo.


It doesn't change anything. Hit/Expertise will still be capped, and haste/mastery would still be your go to best secondary stats, and dodge/parry will still be the least desired stats. Only difference is they go from bad to mediocre on most fights.
Edited by Tuesdays on 2/5/2013 5:04 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
7130
Under the new system you'll need 6 attackers with a 2 second swing timer to make Dodge and Parry give you more holy power than Haste. Of course this means you are taking way less damage (parries) and doing way more damage (Avenger's shield procs) also so you would expect it to be less productive for HP generation.

As far as HP generation for a haste build, it makes almost no difference. Play will feel the same.
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so prot paladins get a nerf for stacking an attractive stat, while brewmaster monks get no nerf for stacking crit and haste.

I see.

seems fair.

Let's remember something very important.

1) GC mentioned they did not want to re-itemize anything (fairly understandable with 5.2 being about halfway done and the like.
2) Leatherwearers were already itemized around it.

We aren't being completely punished by taking Haste. In fact, we are still allowed to take it. This change does hurt us in some ways (yes we know about Lei Shi), but it also helps in some ways (adds in Wind Lord, Empress). Also, there's not many magic fights I THINK in Thunder King*.

*I could be wrong.

GC could've easily nipped the bud on us for taking Haste in general and remove Sanctity of Battle. Instead, he gave a "slight" nerf at the cost of helping those that like the Dodge / Parry avoidance stats. We still dodge and parry during most fights and we don't REALLY need the extra HP during off-tanking.

People will still be stacking Haste. I will still be stacking Haste. It makes our procs a little shakier, but I never completely banked on GC procs anyway. Still, this makes our tier pieces look "better" than how they were on the 2pc / 4pc sets.
problem is, dodge/parry are still unattractive relative to haste.

Yes... and no.

It is still very nice on stuff with a lot of adds. GC going Revenge method helps us during add phases I would think more than it would in its current state of form. Where it hurts is obvious, though, and that goes back to the single raid bosses (especially those that don't physically attack).

I can agree with GC trying to give Dodge / Parry some value. Like I said in another post - Dodge / Parry has at least "some sort of benefit" to the tanking classes but us. Similar to how Haste benefits just about every tanking class but Warriors. This change is probably one of the lesser extreme changes that could be made to us - I think the only (and I hint only) thing I would likely ask is maybe have Avengers Shield always give a charge of HP (and maybe a slightly smaller CD, but that might be asking too much) even outside of Grand Crusade. This way, Dodge / Parry builders still get their Grand Crusade procs and Haste builders can still get HoPo through Avengers Shield even if GC doesn't proc. I think it's unfair that Mastery and Haste builders have benefits, but Dodge / Parry get almost nothing. Now, they... kind of do.

I'm not really opposed to trying to give Dodge / Parry a little more meaning to us. It doesn't completely neuter us, so I just look at it and go "whatever, really".
Edited by Bassm on 2/5/2013 6:56 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Grand Crusader procs are only a small part of the benefit of haste, and we still have a decent chunk of dodge/parry without gearing for it at all. Even in full haste gear, we're looking at a nerf on the order of a single digit amount of holy power over the course of a several-minute fight.

I'm not seeing this change making haste dramatically less attractive in an absolute sense; it just makes dodge/parry compare a little more favorably.

Not sure how much of a problem it really is to not get Grand Crusader procs when not being meleed. Tank DPS is awful without Vengeance anyway, and pure caster bosses are relatively rare.
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90 Human Paladin
0
I'm not sure how people could still consider dodge and parry "mediocre" stats. Full haste vs full avoidance was an issue of smoothing out spike damage, but avoidance did ultimately provide better mitigation. With this change, however, avoidance will provide holy power, smoothing out the damage spikes of an already higher mitigation build.
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90 Human Paladin
2665
Pretty sure this will only make reforging and hemming slightly harder. But damn will it be awesome when soloing old raids :P

Actually, after reading what you all have to say, this is kind of going to suck. GC procs really smooth out the rotation as they are awesome fillers while judgment/CS/HoTR are on CD. I don't actually have enough secondary stats on my gear to start reforging into Haste and Mastery, so I'm not really sure how much of an affect this will have on Haste/Mastery stackers. What exactly does Haste do for us again?
Edited by Vhorrin on 2/5/2013 10:45 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
16755
Increases rate of crusader strikes and judgements thus increasing holy power generation and shield of righteous uptime
In addition it nets an extra sacred shield tick at high enough levels, increases threat and dps, increases Seal of Insight procs/self healing in general, and(for the moment) Grand Crusader procs.

Can't see this as anything other than a nerf, 1 in 5 chance of Crusader strike every few seconds vs a 1 in 4 chance off something with roughly a 40% chance of occurring every time the boss swings at you. And that's IF you gear for it and frankly I still don't see any reason to do so.
Edited by Retsu on 2/6/2013 12:00 AM PST
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