Chi-Wave & Zen Sphere gutted on PTR

90 Pandaren Monk
9455
Until it shows up on the patch notes, I wouldn't worry. We still have at least three weeks left of the PTR thanks to that Isle of Thunder unlock schedule posted a couple of days ago.
Reply Quote
02/09/2013 05:38 PMPosted by Plibt
probably wont play my monk anymore if this goes live


If this is what makes you not want to play monk. I promise you the class will not miss you.

In a broader sense people really need to stop freaking out about this. It might be a mistake or it might not, but in the scope of the dozen or so positive changes for monks next patch this isn't really that bad.

In fact, I still prefer its current incarnation to the live version.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
7440

If this is what makes you not want to play monk. I promise you the class will not miss you.


i enjoy my monk because i'm fairly self sufficient, like hybrids are supposed to be. if you take away the self heals you're just a fairly quirkier version of a rogue without stealth. just my opinion though.
Reply Quote

If this is what makes you not want to play monk. I promise you the class will not miss you.


i enjoy my monk because i'm fairly self sufficient, like hybrids are supposed to be. if you take away the self heals you're just a fairly quirkier version of a rogue without stealth. just my opinion though.


You still have self heals outside of chi wave.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Monk
8430
02/09/2013 08:31 PMPosted by Innverse
You still have self heals outside of chi wave.


I've been leveling up another monk (MW) and do WW for questing. Chi Wave sucks on live in blues and greens. Barely heals for anything. Expel Harm is right there with it. The only thing that heals for any count are the healing spheres that drop after something dies. Mind you this is in the 80's. Everything heals for tons 1-79.

This change will affect how WW plays in MOP prior to being geared in a fairly big way, IMO. At least in PVE.

Edit: Just did some testing on live. At level 87, with 10.6k attack power, Chi Wave is pulsing for about 6k a tick (thought it was 3k; is actually 6). Can barely feel it with 170k health. Some mobs can DPS faster than it heals. I know as a fresh 90 doing dailies on this toon it was rough until I got some gear. Far rougher than some other classes (e.g. Warlock).

I just hope they don't nerf the ability so much that it really makes things suck for people who are trying to level up their monk for the first time. People who are geared may not feel the pinch. People who aren't will.
Edited by Lightning on 2/10/2013 7:59 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
16080
making it ~half as strong as it is on live (for no chi) seems like a strange change though, especially in the context of buffing hybrid heals (with the pvp power change).
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
0
Here is what I don't understand. They state they do not want our talented level 30 abilities to become part of rotation, they want them to be situationally beneficial. Ok, but why then do they make other classes talents (Hunters, who already have too many abilities to begin with) part of their rotation?

I get 6 talents selections, not one of them I am excited to incorporate into my regular rotation. How do you expect me to be excited about my next talent point when it is only situationally beneficial?
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
6860
Here is what I don't understand. They state they do not want our talented level 30 abilities to become part of rotation, they want them to be situationally beneficial. Ok, but why then do they make other classes talents (Hunters, who already have too many abilities to begin with) part of their rotation?

I get 6 talents selections, not one of them I am excited to incorporate into my regular rotation. How do you expect me to be excited about my next talent point when it is only situationally beneficial?

You do realize you can use these without having to worry about Chi expenditure, right? You can just fling a Chi Wave off cooldown, and boom, free DPS for you and a bit of help for your healers. If you're just using these talents as a Chi dump, honestly, you're doing something wrong.

Also, we are not hunters. Don't compare us to them. Their talents are centered solely around either survivability and DPS. This is how it is for nearly every DPS role. On the other hand, we have our talents that are more flexible to deal with the fact that our class has 3 roles.
Edited by Fistlobster on 2/10/2013 10:47 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Undead Monk
13765
For the most part I've been getting these numbers for healing myself. I tried Zen Sphere it does a whole big 2500 per tic on the ptr to be honest the spell is worthless for WW monks. I've noticed alot more Crit heals on PTR vs LIVE in PVE.

For pvp I'm really just kinda blah about the whole healing myself I do far less self healing in my pvp gear vs PVE gear, I know that I've got pvp power but its only putting out 5% or something extra to my heals. Vs most class that can heal a alot and not be strained for a resource or mana idk just feel the monk needs a bit more in pvp healing.

Pve GEAR
Live:
Chi Wave:
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (18423 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (18265 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (18526 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (16678 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (16405 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (16495 Overhealed)
Healing Sphere:
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33974 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 29801 Nature. (4172 Overhealed)
Your Healing Sphere healed You 0 Nature. (33973 Overhealed)
Falling damaged You 77968 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 10022 Nature. (23951 Overhealed)
Falling damaged You 94507 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 26561 Nature. (7412 Overhealed)
Expel Harm:
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (36302 Overhealed)
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (31321 Overhealed)
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (31234 Overhealed)

PTR:
Chi Wave:
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (16435 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (16325 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (16757 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (34024 Overhealed) (Critical)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (30519 Overhealed) (Critical)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (14821 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (14955 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (30441 Overhealed) (Critical)
Healing Sphere:
Falling damaged You 60740 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 22945 Nature. (11029 Overhealed)
Falling damaged You 141863 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 69985 Nature. (Critical)
Falling damaged You 178096 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33974 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 64674 Nature. (5311 Overhealed) (Critical)
Falling damaged You 149828 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33974 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 69985 Nature. (Critical)
Your Healing Sphere healed You 33973 Nature.
Expel Harm:
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (37146 Overhealed)
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (40723 Overhealed)
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (42433 Overhealed)

PVP GEAR
Live:
Chi Wave:
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (12983 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (13376 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (13119 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (14963 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (16870 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (14709 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (14796 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (14789 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (12876 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (13193 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (13057 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (26219 Overhealed) (Critical)
Healing Sphere:
Falling damaged You 38835 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 25843 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 9616 Nature. (16228 Overhealed)
Your Healing Sphere healed You 0 Nature. (25843 Overhealed)
Falling damaged You 96038 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 25843 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 25844 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 44351 Nature. (8886 Overhealed) (Critical)
Falling damaged You 118615 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 25843 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 25843 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 25843 Nature.
Expel Harm:
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (34336 Overhealed)
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (36302 Overhealed)
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (31321 Overhealed)
PTR:
Chi Wave:
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (10914 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (11054 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (11044 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (10835 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (23009 Overhealed) (Critical)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (10912 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (12727 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (13121 Overhealed)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (26191 Overhealed) (Critical)
Your Chi Wave healed You 0 Nature. (26353 Overhealed) (Critical)
Healing Sphere:
Your Healing Sphere healed You 4074 Nature. (24457 Overhealed)
Falling damaged You 67861 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 28531 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 28530 Nature.
Falling damaged You 70728 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 58774 Nature. (Critical)
Your Healing Sphere healed You 8581 Nature. (19950 Overhealed)
Your Healing Sphere healed You 0 Nature. (28531 Overhealed)
Falling damaged You 128631 Physical.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 28531 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 28531 Nature.
Your Healing Sphere healed You 28530 Nature.
Expel Harm:
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (37146 Overhealed)
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (40723 Overhealed)
Your Expel Harm healed You 0 Nature. (42433 Overhealed)
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
6575
My random 2 cents on l30 talents:

L30 talents should cost energy/mana and not generate Chi. In live, having them cost Chi made everything feel very clunky, and I think Blizz recognized this and took the Chi cost away. However, making them free makes them a lot less situational when the only thing you have to sacrifice is a GCD every 10/15 or a 1s cast, instead of having to sacrifice a little bit of energy (and therefore Chi, and therefore damage in RSK/BoK).

ZEN SPHERE: I'm actually a big believer in zen sphere, as long as the numbers get tweaked. I really really like the idea of zen sphere- we would need to spend a GCD basically every 16s to get a small self-heal and something akin to a burst second-wind at 35%. This is of course isn't as good against dispel teams, but even then the fact that the burst heal comes with a dispel means its not totally useless, along with its 10 second CD.
HOWEVER, with that said, zen sphere is NOT conversion/recuperate/second wind. Not only does it heal, but it does damage as well. Additionally, ITS FREE!

I think there should be a mechanic where zen sphere only does healing when cast on a friendly unit, and only does damage when cast on an enemy unit in the form of a dot that explodes when dispelled (obviously shouldn't be big damage like UA, just a tiny amount - this might synergize too well tho with affliction, especially consider monks do great sustained). If you split the offensive/defensive abilities, I think it would then make more sense to tweak the numbers a little higher and have zen sphere be a viable defensive talent (say, 8k, roughly equiv to 2% health, every 2 seconds and the burst heal would be around 25-35k, equiv to around 8% health for a 400k toon). Same numbers would apply to the offensive ability - it also gives monks the dot that many have wanted.

CHI WAVE: This talent just needs to have its healing number higher than right now on PTR, no question. Definitely not to what they it was before, but something like a 50% increase instead of 100% increase (12k heal right now becomes 18k heal). This would be more burst oriented than zen sphere.

CHI BURST: This talent is pretty much a pve talent

PS - i know that my suggestions to zen sphere don't really fit in with the flavor of l30 talents, but currently its absolutely pathetic. Either buff the numbers for just healing, or split the healing/damage so you can buff the numbers reasonably considering that the talent does both damage and healing.
Edited by Screwtapina on 2/10/2013 10:52 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
0
Here is what I don't understand. They state they do not want our talented level 30 abilities to become part of rotation, they want them to be situationally beneficial. Ok, but why then do they make other classes talents (Hunters, who already have too many abilities to begin with) part of their rotation?

I get 6 talents selections, not one of them I am excited to incorporate into my regular rotation. How do you expect me to be excited about my next talent point when it is only situationally beneficial?


You do realize you can use these without having to worry about Chi expenditure, right? You can just fling a Chi Wave off cooldown, and boom, free DPS for you and a bit of help for your healers. If you're just using these talents as a Chi dump, honestly, you're doing something wrong.

Also, we are not hunters. Don't compare us to them. Their talents are centered solely around either survivability and DPS. This is how it is for nearly every DPS role. On the other hand, we have our talents that are more flexible to deal with the fact that our class has 3 roles.


First and foremost, I did not compare us to hunters. I did not put our talents in a vacuum and compare them one by one against hunters. I merely stated that as a hunter they are genuinely excited to get a new talent point whereas when I get new one I am like, "Meh, I will use this new talent sometime, once in a blue moon."

As it stands right now as monks, we can all forgo talents completely and regardless of spec our play style would not change much. That isn't good game design, talents should change play style.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
16080
If chi-wave only healing for ~11-12k on ptr then it's less than 1% hp/sec healing, assuming you get all the bounces. And you have to spend a global and potentially break cc to use it. That's pretty awful.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Monk
13765
CHI WAVE: This talent just needs to have its healing number higher than right now on PTR, no question. Definitely not to what they it was before, but something like a 50% increase instead of 100% increase (12k heal right now becomes 18k heal). This would be more burst oriented than zen sphere.


How is it any dif from live? In Pvp most class get a free heal or a resourced heal monks have chi wave. On ptr it does like what @ best none crit it's 10k ish also it goes where it wants. Not like the heal goes to just me it goes all over the place. That's with the buff to PVP power healing. It is down right just crap. Zen would be better if it was worth a damn.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
6575
02/10/2013 11:05 PMPosted by Bubba
CHI WAVE: This talent just needs to have its healing number higher than right now on PTR, no question. Definitely not to what they it was before, but something like a 50% increase instead of 100% increase (12k heal right now becomes 18k heal). This would be more burst oriented than zen sphere.


How is it any dif from live? In Pvp most class get a free heal or a resourced heal monks have chi wave. On ptr it does like what @ best none crit it's 10k ish also it goes where it wants. Not like the heal goes to just me it goes all over the place. That's with the buff to PVP power healing. It is down right just crap. Zen would be better if it was worth a damn.


Our resourced heal should be healing spheres, and that should definitely heal for more than 30k without batle fatigue. I don't think TOO much more though. Healing spheres should be to us what flash heal is to a spriest. However, consider that while healing spheres is hard on energy, we regen all our energy back in 5 second, and consider that healing spheres is usable while silenced and is not a cast. Spriests have to stand and cast, and it is hard on their mana, and its a lot harder for them to regenerate their mana back (VT will get dispelled/they will be sat on and interrupted, and dispersion should almost always just be used defensively). A reasonable amount might be 45k with both the pvp power healing buff and battle fatigue factored in.

One solution might be to make l30 talents heal for more, but cost energy and not generate Chi.

Also consider that IF chi wave jumped around like you wanted it to, that would be around 50k of healing for 4 jumps to you with current numbers and without crits. So maybe part of the solution is to change the behavior of chi wave and make it a lot faster and behave more like PoM. It already prefers lower HP targets like PoM does, and it already ignores CCed targets for the most part. Chi wave should not be considered our major self heal - that should, as i said before, be healing spheres.

With that said, I really want Zen sphere to be viable, I think it would be awesome if numbers are right.
Edited by Screwtapina on 2/10/2013 11:17 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Undead Monk
13765
02/10/2013 11:07 PMPosted by Screwtapina
One solution might be to make l30 talents heal for more, but cost energy and not generate Chi.


They don't gen chi atm on ptr. Making it cost energy would just make it more of an issue imo.

3 healing orbs pretty much puts use with 0 energy . I really just don't get the whole thing anymore . The healing aspect of this class/spec is a up and down thing never is a solid thing.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
6575
One solution might be to make l30 talents heal for more, but cost energy and not generate Chi.


They don't gen chi atm on ptr. Making it cost energy would just make it more of an issue imo.

3 healing orbs pretty much puts use with 0 energy . I really just don't get the whole thing anymore . The healing aspect of this class/spec is a up and down thing never is a solid thing.


I know they don't, I'm just saying energy-costing abilities, with the exception of healing spheres, usually generate chi. You are right tho, healing orbs is our self heal and should be our main self heal. They should heal for more, despite the fact that they are instant cast, made very 0.5s, and usable while silenced, something that differentiates it a lot from every other hybrid.

We are the only hybrid to use a different energy bar than our healer (druids have to shapeshift out to caster form to cast a heal), so our situation is a lot more unique.

The more I think about it, they should buff healing spheres a little bit,
chi wave should bounce as fast as PoM does and have the heal be buffed, and zen sphere should just flat out heal for more.

I'm just saying, I can see some of the potential concerns that the game designers might have, no matter how warranted or unwarranted:

1) L30 talents are now free, so why should the heal be so big
2) Healing spheres is castable while moving and silenced (then again, pw shield is castable while moving as well)
3) We don't have mana, we have energy, which changes a lot of the dynamics.

Feral druids are the other class closest to us when it comes to hybrids, and there self healing isn't exactly good either.

What we actually need is a small buff to damage reduction/survivability - whether or not that comes in the form of healing or not is kind of immaterial.
Edited by Screwtapina on 2/10/2013 11:29 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Shaman
5095
He speaks the truth! Been doing 2v2 and 3v3 on the PTR and monk healing is pretty low
Reply Quote
80 Human Priest
3225
02/09/2013 05:49 PMPosted by Innverse
probably wont play my monk anymore if this goes live


If this is what makes you not want to play monk. I promise you the class will not miss you.

In a broader sense people really need to stop freaking out about this. It might be a mistake or it might not, but in the scope of the dozen or so positive changes for monks next patch this isn't really that bad.

In fact, I still prefer its current incarnation to the live version.


That's a really crap attitude. People play classes for different reasons. WW monks are a hybrid class, and as a result should do reasonable healing. One of the major flaws with this class from the start is WW as a spec has not felt very "hybridish". It finally felt that way at the start of the PTR, but is back to not feeling that way.

I think the Chi-Wave nerf is going to have a major impact on lower tier/skilled players. The class is extremely squishy, and for people playing with healers that are not extremely skilled staying alive will be that much harder.

For better players the change won't make much of a difference in 3v3 arena.
Reply Quote
Sometimes I like to run Vaseline all over my body and slide around my kitchen floor like a snail.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]