Monk: Attempting to equalize FW / MW

As far as I know, unreliable Chi generation from Soothing Mist (and inadequate/expensive reliable generators) is the reason many monks prefer to heal by Fistweaving instead of from range. I want to start brainstorming ideas with you to come up with a solution to equalize the two. So far, here's a little of what I've been thinking:

  • Soothing Mist could no longer generate Chi, but instead a cast-time ability such as SuM/EnvM could also be made instant-cast while channeling, and guarantee 1 chi per cast at the same rate as a jab GCD (as long as eminence healing/SoM are roughly similar). This feels wonky, though.

  • Or, Soothing Mist could retain its RNG generation while an additional short-cooldown Chi generator could be cast only while channeling Soothing Mist. A 5-8 second CD (leave determining the proper CD to theorycrafters) could provide a reliable source of Chi generation in addition to the standard ReM/EH on CD.

  • Simply as a quality of life issue for MW monks, it'd be nice to be able to cast ReM while channeling SoM.

If at all possible, it would be nice to open up the room for developers to remove the ability to spam Soothing Mist for double the generation, I know that's a mechanic they likely aren't comfortable with.

What do you think, or what are some of your thoughts on the subject? Feel free to post any and all relevant information and ideas. I'll keep this thread updated with credit given where credit is due, thanks for sharing!

- Morthrek
Edited by Morthrek on 2/6/2013 3:59 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
7230
Your idea makes some sense, but there is a problem. We cant fistweave every encounter. Some fights require we to do a strong single target healing, in this case we need the chi generation from Soothing Mist. This is the reason why the Power Strikes talent give us extra chi with Soothing Mist.

For your idea to work well would be necessary to remodel all MW healing method.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
After the first few seconds of a fight the rng nature of cjl/soothing chi generation really isn't a big factor for me. Between rm and eh more or less on cooldown and knowing when the big damage is coming to hold my 5 capped chi or not I very rarely find myself scrambling for chi when I need to uplift. Standing in melee on most fights even when "mistweaving" because you're kind of silly not to avoid the anti-ranged mechanics when you can means you can always fall back on jab.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
I think the problem is Monk's other single target heals rather than Soothing Mist, specifically Enveloping and Surging. And the fact that there is really nothing else since everything else is perfectly useable at melee, except maybe Chi Torpedo/Chi Burst.

Enveloping isn't that bad but isn't very good either, and Surging flat out sucks. Fleshing out the ranged kit to actually feel functional would be nice. I can't say what specifically could use work. Everything except Soothing? I'm not really joking either. Going from a busy melee rotation with the majority of your toolkit available to the mediocre tool set at ranged just feels wrong to me. The ranged kit is bland.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Soothing Mists' Chi generation is fine. Be proactive. Usually, between ReM casts and Soothing Mists, you'll have enough Chi to keep up your single target healing. You don't need the 100% Chi generation of Jab most of the time. When you do, it is there. Soothing Mists is more efficient than people give it credit for (when you consider savings you get from Chi healing, it is more between a Greater Heal and a Flash Heal than a true Flash Heal equivalent). That doesn't mean you spam surging mists all the time, but if you REALLY need Chi RIGHT NOW, then you probably need the healing from Surging Mists.

Try this: go through a fight while trying to use only the Chi you get from Renewing Mists casts or from Soothing procs. It will make you a much more efficient healer, and will wean you off the easy Chi from Jab.
Edited by Ramayana on 2/9/2013 5:17 AM PST
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I actually never jab, I never go into melee unless I'm trying to kill someone in pvp.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
No offense intended here but if we're classified as a melee class...shouldn't complain about fistweaving. Not at all...by far this is the most exciting healing style in Wow, and it's not even close. I hate 'MWing' because it's boring and terrible. Maybe the FW spoiled me (all of us?) in that regard. But quite frankly I FW as much as humanly possible not due to it's power but entirely due to the fact that it's far far more fun.

If you want to be a pure caster, you should smack yourself for picking monk. Just my two cents.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17270
I always did personally find it weird that people would roll a class centered around DPS \ melee healing.. and then complain about melee healing.

But that's me.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
No offense intended here but if we're classified as a melee class...


As discussed in another thread - we aren't melee when we're at range. Thus (unlike other classes) we aren't punished for going into melee, but are subject to ranged attacks while at range. Thus, if you are standing with the ranged, you'll get things like Wind Bomb, but if you move in to melee, then you'll be classified as melee and won't get Wind Bombs...

I think.

I always did personally find it weird that people would roll a class centered around DPS \ melee healing.. and then complain about melee healing.


I almost decided not to go Monk because I hated DPS healing on my Priest (and also Lightwell and our Statue looked a lot like Lightwell to me at first). Fistweaving is a lot more fun than atonement, and I use it often. But our ranged abilities are just fine, and we get enough Chi from our ranged abilities to be able to do what we need to do.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17270
The point is that the concept of a monk healer was a melee healer. :P Everyone knew that going into it.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6860
Why is monk single-target healing so looked down upon? I've yet to come into a situation where I've been unable to keep a tank up if I'm casting. It's simply more powerful than fistweaving, and that's why you'd choose it over the latter. There's the balance right there: mistweaving for raw power and numbers, and fistweaving for mana management and reliable Chi generation. Each has their place, each has their forte. You don't FW when damage is spiky, and you don't MW during low damage periods that don't require buckets of mana to maintain the raid. I just don't get why some people think it has to be one or the other.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
02/09/2013 02:31 PMPosted by Fistlobster
Why is monk single-target healing so looked down upon?


Most of what is effective at ranged works just as well as melee regarding single target healing.

And it's not so hard to understand why single target healing is looked down upon if you actually look at the spells (or have other healers, like most of us do). Enveloping is almost always a poor choice over Uplift outside very certain circumstances when it will not be a lot of overheal, and Surging is a bullet train to OOM Town.

Right now, I have yet to find a situation where Healing Sphere wouldn't be better than Surging. I know that Spheres are being toned down a lot for 5.2, but I have no idea if that will change. With the TP/BoK changes it will see some more use in melee range, ironically.

I used to be ok with Surging at the start of the expansion, but it was gutted repeatedly for no reason at all. Enveloping is getting down there too. Life Cocoon is being buffed again (when it doesn't really need it), so I'm also worried it will be neutered into oblivion later since it's all we really have besides Revival.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Why is monk single-target healing so looked down upon? I've yet to come into a situation where I've been unable to keep a tank up if I'm casting. It's simply more powerful than fistweaving, and that's why you'd choose it over the latter. There's the balance right there: mistweaving for raw power and numbers, and fistweaving for mana management and reliable Chi generation. Each has their place, each has their forte. You don't FW when damage is spiky, and you don't MW during low damage periods that don't require buckets of mana to maintain the raid. I just don't get why some people think it has to be one or the other.


1) Some people ascribe to the theory that if it isn't a Paladin, it can't tank heal. Even though that hasn't been true since late Wrath.

2) Some people don't know how to play Mistweaver yet, and do things like try to ST heal with Healing Sphere or complain about the Chi generation of Soothing Mists.

3) Some people are crazy and think that fistweaving is more than just a way to do a little extra damage and healing during low periods, do more healing for bosses that have a damage buff, and/or get Chi a bit more reliably (for a tradeoff in mana efficiency).

Edit:

4) Some people really don't know how to play Mistweaver and think Enveloping Mists is bad.
Edited by Ramayana on 2/9/2013 3:52 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
6860
Yeah, I just can't see how someone could think Enveloping Mists is bad. 3 Chi, so it counts massively towards Mana Tea, instant-cast with Soothing Mist, and increases the amount healed by Soothing Mist. Why wouldn't anyone like a 30k HPS, at the very least, at a very low cost, for 5 seconds? And why are people saying that you have to spam Surging Mist? It's an emergency heal, like Flash Heal or Regrowth, and should be used as such: sparingly, as it is powerful but expensive.
Edited by Fistlobster on 2/9/2013 4:08 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990


1) Some people ascribe to the theory that if it isn't a Paladin, it can't tank heal. Even though that hasn't been true since late Wrath.


Who is saying this? I said every class has more efficient and fleshed-out single target healing toolkits than we do. There's a bit of a difference there, and I'm not simply going by HPS or efficiency (or lack thereof). I just want some more thought put into our "ranged" kit, like what is being done with 5.2 melee stuff.


2) Some people don't know how to play Mistweaver yet, and do things like try to ST heal with Healing Sphere


It is our cheapest ST spell by far, will heal a tank to full in a very short timeframe, is recommended and used by pretty much all progression Monks on HC content, and is getting a hefty nerf for being so good.

With all this in mind, can you explain why ST healing with Healing Sphere on live is a bad idea? Because being passively aggressive and smug without any relevant data is not wise. I'm not sure what PTR coeffs are, so maybe you do?


3) Some people are crazy and think that fistweaving is more than just a way to do a little extra damage and healing during low periods, do more healing for bosses that have a damage buff, and/or get Chi a bit more reliably (for a tradeoff in mana efficiency).


Why would you think that when Blizzard and GC are specifically addressing Monk concerns by significantly buffing melee damage and furthering Monk melee options in the next patch?

Moreover, can you explain the benefits of not actively fistweaving, especially considering how little of our kit is affected negatively by it?


4) Some people really don't know how to play Mistweaver and think Enveloping Mists is bad.


I hope you aren't referring to me. I don't like it being repeatedly gutted/sniped by other healers, but I still actually use it. Sphere on a tank is better burst healing, but they are OP on Live and I know that isn't going to last. If it tic'd faster and the healing stayed the same as now for the foreseeable future, I'd be fine with it.

02/09/2013 04:07 PMPosted by Fistlobster
And why are people saying that you have to spam Surging Mist? It's an emergency heal, like Flash Heal or Regrowth, and should be used as such: sparingly, as it is powerful but expensive.


Again, if you are referring to me, I say Surging Mist is bad because (at least on Live) using Healing Sphere is better in every scenario I can think of. it is much cheaper, does better burst healing, and doesn't require channeling Soothing Mist to be instant. I don't "spam" Surging Mist. I don't use it at all. It's literally not on my bar, and I have yet to see/hear a reason to put it back. Healing Sphere is always better.

Of course, I also mentioned that Sphere is being toned down. I don't know by how much, but it would have to be a lot to make a difference.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 2/9/2013 4:36 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
tlc
15535
2) Some people don't know how to play Mistweaver yet, and do things like try to ST heal with Healing Sphere or complain about the Chi generation of Soothing Mists.

4) Some people really don't know how to play Mistweaver and think Enveloping Mists is bad.


How did you come to these conclusions? Healing Sphere is our strongest single target heal and Enveloping Mists is lackluster. In regards to the quoted points, why does thinking any of the quoted statements make you think the person doesn't know how to play?
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Who is saying this? I said every class has more efficient and fleshed-out single target healing toolkits than we do. There's a bit of a difference there, and I'm not simply going by HPS or efficiency (or lack thereof). I just want some more thought put into our "ranged" kit, like what is being done with 5.2 melee stuff.


Throughput: we have a cheaper Flash Heal (once you factor in Chi generation) than the other classes. It is also instant and helps either our ST healing or AE healing (depending on where you spend said Chi).

Efficiency: when combined with Soothing Mist, Enveloping Mist reaches an efficiency of around 22 HPM. Most healers are happy with around 12.

It is our cheapest ST spell by far, will heal a tank to full in a very short timeframe, is recommended and used by pretty much all progression Monks on HC content, and is getting a hefty nerf for being so good.

With all this in mind, can you explain why ST healing with Healing Sphere on live is a bad idea? Because being passively aggressive and smug without any relevant data is not wise. I'm not sure what PTR coeffs are, so maybe you do?


You can't ignore Chi. Healing Sphere's HPM is around 9, which on the face of it is pretty good. However, it generates no Chi. Soothing Mists' HPM is about 6, but it also generates Chi and triggers our Statue healing. You can use Healing Sphere all you like, but don't sit there with no Chi and then complain about our ST healing.

Why would you think that when Blizzard and GC are specifically addressing Monk concerns by significantly buffing melee damage and furthering Monk melee options in the next patch?


Actually, the Fistweaving damage buff (and healing nerf to our autoattack) is part of a change that includes Atonement for Disc Priests, where they want to increase the damage of such abilities, but leave the healing the same. This is likely an attempt to buff both specs in PVP, where they are weak. For Fistweaving specifically, they want to move the healing to our Chi-based Fistweaving and away from auto attacks, so that we have to actually choose (by either spending Chi on BoK/TP or on uplift/Enveloping Mists) instead of just rolling with an extra 10% free healing from autoattacks like we do on live.

Moreover, can you explain the benefits of not actively fistweaving, especially considering how little of our kit is affected negatively by it?


Well, besides not having to stand in melee, the benefits of not fistweaving means you'll have more Chi to spend on regular healing. On live, it is generally not much of a choice unless the fight really hates on melee. That's why they're adjusting it to be more Chi-based and raising the mana cost of Jab in 5.2.

Also, even on live, Soothing Mists is more efficient (but less reliable) than Jab.
Edited by Ramayana on 2/9/2013 11:15 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
I hope you aren't referring to me. I don't like it being repeatedly gutted/sniped by other healers, but I still actually use it. Sphere on a tank is better burst healing, but they are OP on Live and I know that isn't going to last. If it tic'd faster and the healing stayed the same as now for the foreseeable future, I'd be fine with it.


If you're using Healing Sphere over Enveloping Mists because your Enveloping Mists is being sniped, you aren't doing difficult enough content or you are taking too many healers. EM is much more efficient than Healing Spheres, and it has great synergy with Soothing Mists (which in turn has great synergy with Statue and Surging Mists).

Again, if you are referring to me, I say Surging Mist is bad because (at least on Live) using Healing Sphere is better in every scenario I can think of. it is much cheaper, does better burst healing, and doesn't require channeling Soothing Mist to be instant. I don't "spam" Surging Mist. I don't use it at all. It's literally not on my bar, and I have yet to see/hear a reason to put it back. Healing Sphere is always better.


Healing Spheres don't generate Chi, which is the key to healing as a Mistweaver. Surging Mists shouldn't be used often, but honestly, Healing Spheres shouldn't be used much at all (about the only use I've found for them is putting them down on trash to snipe heals since getting on the meters on trash as a MW can sometimes be difficult).

You're really comparing Healing Spheres to the wrong thing. You should be comparing it to Soothing Mists which is pretty clearly central to our ST healing.

How did you come to these conclusions? Healing Sphere is our strongest single target heal and Enveloping Mists is lackluster. In regards to the quoted points, why does thinking any of the quoted statements make you think the person doesn't know how to play?


Soothing Mists+Enveloping Mists: 22 HPM.
Surging Mists+Enveloping Mists: ~7 HPM.
Healing Sphere: 9 HPM.

In other words, even if you're spamming Surging Mists on the target, as long as you're using the Chi without wasting it, you will approach the HPM of Healing Spheres.

Here's a top ranking log for Lei Shi, 10H, a fight that requires significant single target healing:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-swee3krixvs3p9ai/details/3/?s=2587&e=2931

Now first, ALL OF THE CAVEATS about meters, but notice that Enveloping Mists is one of their top spells.
Edited by Ramayana on 2/10/2013 12:24 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
tlc
15535
Edit: You fixed the parse before I finished typing my post.

The problem really comes down to encounter design and the natural trade-offs in healing based on your chi generator. The vast majority of the fights require frequent amounts of aoe healing and this diminishes the amount of use of the soothing mists buff. If you are primarily jabbing, the buff does you no good at all.

Enveloping Mists has an impressive hpm ratio when soothing mists is your chi generator, if you are primarily jabbing, it is less than healing sphere.

Valen's calc in my gear(498ilvl) has Healing Sphere at 13hpm, Enveloping Mists has 10-11(17.82 with soothing as generator, 31.98 combined). This is fairly close but my enveloping tends to have similar to double my healing sphere overhealing depending on the encounter.

I raid with a holy paladin and on three heal fights we use a disc priest. I don't personally think our single target is weak, it's just that in my experience, very few of the fights make me want to sit there and channel soothing for extended periods of time to use enveloping and furthermore benefit from the +30% healing buff. I would rather use the chi to uplift the raid or just chi wave(which I admit, I should use more often).

If a fight required nothing but tank healing the entire time I could see doing it. With the amount of raid damage going out, the importance of dps, and the bursting potential of healing sphere, I don't really see enveloping mists as a strong spell. It just has very little value unless you are already doing nothing but soothing mists. By all means use it if nothing but extended periods of just tank damage is happening, I just haven't seen it yet except for Lei Shi. I've only done five heroics.

TLDR: I think enveloping mists kinda sucks if you don't primarily channel soothing mists in your playstyle and if 40-50% of the heal is going to get sniped, just drop a few spheres instead.
Edited by Pandanuses on 2/10/2013 1:24 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
The problem really comes down to encounter design and the natural trade-offs in healing based on your chi generator. The vast majority of the fights require frequent amounts of aoe healing and this diminishes the amount of use of the soothing mists buff. If you are primarily jabbing, the buff does you no good at all.


This is true of every class, though. Every class is going to see more healing from their AOE (otherwise we wouldn't cast it) and if you aren't specifically assigned to ST heal you probably aren't going to use Enveloping Mists much. That doesn't mean our ST is bad.

Now, one thing about Jab - I think Monks overuse it. Jab to me is sort of the Greater Heal (or even Flash Heal) of Chi generators: its there when you need it, but you should only use it when you really need to. Unless there's a ton of damage going out, Renewing Mists, Soothing Mists, Chi Brew (or Power Strikes) give enough Chi to work with. In other words, you shouldn't depend on Jab for most of your Chi.

When I first started Mistweaving, I was Jabbing a lot and I found I had mana problems. Since then I have been relying on my ReM/Soothing Mists Chi a lot more and my mana is much better (and my numbers didn't change significantly). I still jab when I need the extra healing, or if I need some clutch Chi to keep up a Fistweaving buff or need to get TFT off, don't get me wrong!

Valen's calc in my gear(498ilvl) has Healing Sphere at 13hpm, Enveloping Mists has 10-11(17.82 with soothing as generator, 31.98 combined). This is fairly close but my enveloping tends to have similar to double my healing sphere overhealing depending on the encounter.


True, although our HOTs tick pretty fast, as well as Soothing. You may also end up Surging in there which brings down your HPM. In the real world, you're probably getting around 14-15 HPM from a Soothing/Enveloping Mists combo. That's still a pretty good efficiency level for single target.

I raid with a holy paladin and on three heal fights we use a disc priest. I don't personally think our single target is weak, it's just that in my experience, very few of the fights make me want to sit there and channel soothing for extended periods of time to use enveloping and furthermore benefit from the +30% healing buff. I would rather use the chi to uplift the raid or just chi wave(which I admit, I should use more often).


I agree, in such a comp, it makes the most sense to use the Monk for raid healing. Paladins in general go to the tanks first (but more because of beacon and their iffy raid healing rather than superior tank healing). Disc is also a strong tank healer because of how absorbs work and they are simply OP at the moment. Their AOE may be weaker in 5.2 so that will probably continue to be the case. In such a comp, the Monk heals the raid more by default than anything. That doesn't mean our ST heals are terrible, necessarily.

If a fight required nothing but tank healing the entire time I could see doing it. With the amount of raid damage going out, the importance of dps, and the bursting potential of healing sphere, I don't really see enveloping mists as a strong spell. It just has very little value unless you are already doing nothing but soothing mists. By all means use it if nothing but extended periods of just tank damage is happening, I just haven't seen it yet except for Lei Shi. I've only done five heroics.


Again, I think folks waste too much mana on Jab. Soothing works well, and you can still get decent raid healing (and yes, uplifts) out by using ReM on CD. Usually you won't use an Enveloping back to back, but it can save a tank, especially if you're already soothing him. As far as fights with significant tank damage - Will in between dances, Blade Lord p1, Wind bomb guy p1, Shek'zeer adds phase, Lei Shi, Stone Guards, Elegon (depends). If for some reason you got assigned to heal a tank, a Monk will do just fine.

I used to say the same thing on my Holy Priest back in Cata, when I tank healed several HM fights when everyone was saying how terrible Holy was at healing tanks.

Obviously, if Enveloping Mists is going to be mostly overhealing, then pop some Healing Spheres. But at that point, if you have the GCDs to use spheres (as opposed to doing AOE stuff) and you're worried your ST healing will get sniped your chance of dying is so low that it doesn't really matter what you do.

One other thing: just to reiterate, it might sound from my post like I never use/hate Jab. That is not the case. I just try as best I can to not waste mana, which means I try to get as much of my Chi as I can from spells I'm going to cast anyway, like ReM or Chi Brew. If I need to do ST healing, I'll Soothe, and if that still isn't enough I'll Jab (or most likely Surge if I need the Chi to save a tank).
Edited by Ramayana on 2/10/2013 2:06 AM PST
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