Monk Uptime in PvP

90 Human Warlock
9635
Quite simply, I do not understand why I see Blizzard saying (and players complaining) that Monks are (a) underrepresented in PvP and (b) are kitable. Warlocks are underrepresented yet some of our abilities are considered OP, so they are getting nerfed. Okay, but with what compensation? Monks are underrepresented yet are getting no nerfs, just buffs. Okay, but how is this the same?

I have a Warlock, RDruid, DPriest, FMage, AWarrior and HPaladin at 90. While Monks are more problematic on some classes than others, I find that of all melee Monks have the most:

A) uptime on me (or their target).
B) rooting/slowing ability (ranged root plus permanently slowed via Disable).
C) CC (be it a snare, stun or interrupt).

Monks:
1) Interrupt that also silences (positional requirement is a small issue with the rest of their toolkit; see Paralysis/Leg Sweep --> Spear Hand Jab from the front).
2) No ranged silence but a ranged root, one melee snare/root, melee Incapacitate and two stuns in melee range (one AoE).
3) Ridiculous mobility (double Roll/Chi Torpedo, Tiger's Lust and aforementioned roots/slows).

DKs:
1) Interrupt that does not silence.
2) Ranged silence/stun and ranged root.
3) Low mobility but double Death Grip (if used properly) for gap closers and interrupts.

Warriors:
1) Interrupt and no silences but Intimidating Shout acts as a very effective second Interrupt.
2) Warriors have no ranged CC other than Storm Bolt (which is NOT common yet effective).
3) Double Charge option or single charge that stuns for several seconds, "AoE" Shockwave stun and very good mobility with Heroic Leap and Safeguard, not to mention Hamstring and possibly Hindering Strikes glyph/Staggering Shout/Piercing Howl.

Rogues:
1) Garrote is basically an "Interrupt" that silences *especially for Sub* but, for argument's sake, I will say it's just an interrupt.
2) Ranged CC is pretty much non-existent but some gap closers (Sprint, Shadowstep, Burst of Speed).
3) CC is at a max with two stuns and a third off the DR (Paralytic Poison), two Incapacitates and an Interrupt.

I may have missed some CC here but think it's a fairly good analogy. While it may seem that each class is balanced, I argue that Monks are just nuts in uptime when compared to other melee. The most annoying thing I find is that if you get away from them, something is always up: Tiger's Lust, Chi Torpedo or one of their CCs.

NOTE: I am aware that some of the CC I used in this comparison are talents, however, they are mentioned because a large majority of players get said talents/glyphs:
http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?c=10&r=&w=&a=24&n=&e=pvp
http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?c=10&r=&w=&a=23&n=&e=pvp
Edited by Zaef on 2/1/2013 4:07 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Monk
8860
I really hope this isn't a serious post
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
6385
I never understood why people target other classes when they're getting nerfed.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
9635
The point of this post is just because something is underrepresented doesn't mean it's not OP at particular things. And yes, look at the top arena brackets, Warlocks are no where near close to being a leading class.

I'm not targeting Monk's about the Warlock nerfs at all, instant Fear is OP (I have other classes as I mentioned), but I'm just saying an underrepresented NEW class doesn't mean it's broken and needs buffed, it just means that players may be preferring their mains from past expansions.

DKs came out and everyone rolled one, they were extremely OP (Monks are nothing near them, don't get me wrong) and just because that didn't happen this time doesn't mean something is wrong.

I'm not even saying Monk's need nerfs, but people complaining about Monk's not being good are confusing to me since, as my post illustrates, they have plenty of uptime.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Monk
8860
The point of this post is just because something is underrepresented doesn't mean it's not OP at particular things. And yes, look at the top arena brackets, Warlocks are no where near close to being a leading class.

I'm not targeting Monk's about the Warlock nerfs at all, instant Fear is OP (I have other classes as I mentioned), but I'm just saying an underrepresented NEW class doesn't mean it's broken and needs buffed, it just means that players may be preferring their mains from past expansions.

DKs came out and everyone rolled one, they were extremely OP (Monks are nothing near them, don't get me wrong) and just because that didn't happen this time doesn't mean something is wrong.

I'm not even saying Monk's need nerfs, but people complaining about Monk's not being good are confusing to me since, as my post illustrates, they have plenty of uptime.


You're ignoring the main reason monks are currently underpowered: they have no way to combat stuns or fear outside of a 2min trinket or undead racial. This gives WW monks incredibly low survivability.

Sure, if you don't fear/stun/disorient me and only root me once every 30 seconds, i'll sit on top of you the entire game.
Edited by Mongoose on 2/1/2013 6:44 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
6500
Ever tried to fear monks? Should solve your problem
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
7160
So lets look at the monk arsenal.

CC Talents :
Leg Sweep - Small AOE stun lasts for five seconds, takes around two seconds to finish the animations give or take to begin damaging the other player.
Charging Ox Wave - Small stun that is fired and used by positioning your character, 3 second duration, easy to dodge.
Deadly Reach - Increases range on Paralysis by 20 yards(?).

The general choice here is Leg Sweep, which is nice granted, but it suffers horribly from lag and MS. If you are against someone lagging just a tad bit, even if you are on top of them, it may not even recognize you hit them. Leg Sweep can also miss, be dodged, and parried.

Roll/Chi Torpedo as well as Flying Serpent kick are the monks main way of getting around, they have long refresh rates, unless you take Celerity which is useless in most cases for WW anyhow.

Spinning Fire Blossom is the ranged root you are talking about, but it requires you to "skill shot" it so to say much like Charging Ox Wave and can easily be eaten by pets or other targets that are "red". There is a minor glyph that now makes it a target-able ability but removes the snare making it all but useless.

The slow is called Disable, which is a 50% slow that is automatically refreshed if you stay within 10 yards of the monk. I suppose you could count Flying serpent kick as a slow, albeit a very weak slow considering terrain usually stops your advance.

Fists of fury is our second stun, or moreover our only baseline stun, that has a five second duration, costs three chi, and has a fairly short range. All things considering this is our greatest weapon at our disposal, not counting RSK for utility reasons, but it usually falls short just because of MS/lag.

There is also a notorious bug about that has WW monks scratching their heads, regarding range issues on abilities requiring melee range.

Oh and one last thing, usually if a class is broken, and the majority of people say it is broken as well as developers, then it pretty much means that class needs buffs or in the least changes.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Monk
3255
I think Kagg won the internetz
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
7160
I truly think the OP, and many other players, need to try out the class before passing judgement.
Edited by Kagg on 2/1/2013 10:25 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Orc Monk
12275
The big buffs we're getting, are:
Deadly reach is baseline: To me it was either this or take away the positional requirement, and I'm glad they chose this. The physical-non dispellable part? I can see being a bit over the top, but since a single damage to the target will remove it, it's not that bad.

Ring of Peace has been changed, it is no longer stupidly over-powered, I for one am keeping my chest sweep.

Nimble Brew: Much needed to fix that survivability issue Kagg was talking about, along with dampen harm being useable in stuns (Although I don't think many people actually take this talent.)

Storm, Earth, and Fire: I have not used this, I do not know how well this will go so no comment.

And then the big one. (in my opinion) Combo Breaker being baseline, and getting Bottle Fury for our new mastery (along with 1 less chi useage to get TEB). Combo Breaker as a mastery was horrible, no one got that stat because you'd likely spend a bit of time sitting on it. Adding in Bottled Fury is going to help with our lack of on demand burst.

Every other buff is minor, or much needed (such as removing chi cost from Touch of Karma and Chi Wave)
Reply Quote
90 Undead Monk
5905
02/01/2013 04:05 PMPosted by Zaef
Quite simply, I do not understand why I see Blizzard saying (and players complaining) that Monks are (a) underrepresented in PvP and (b) are kitable.

Shadahp.

Monks are underrepresented and are kitable.

How can you even make a counterargument from this. The monk gap closers don't even target players, they target directions.
Edited by Scurb on 2/1/2013 11:29 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Undead Monk
9170
I'll just try to explain it, Free movement is not the same as a targeted one. Its honestly like comparing a skillshot to a targeted ability in dota/lol/hon, Yes, the mobility itself from roll/fsk are absurd, Roll is a set, flat distance, that you go, on gcd, and more or less does nothing aside from move you, you go past people trying to remove snares, go flying off edges, and overall does just about nothing in terms of a gap closer, the only one close, is FSK, and even thats a far cry from shadowstep or charge guaranteeing you there, or guaranteeing a (shadowstep shiv, charge hamstring) gcd on the target to maintain uptime. The simple explanation is our uptime is awful, our mobility is amazing.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
9635
All the hate in this thread. Nobody likes to need nerfs, but the problem here is skilled Monks outshine a majority of players. I've seen well played Monks and their uptime is amazing. So, as in my original post, nerfing or buffing based on "representation" in arena or RBGs is slightly problematic. Warlocks are getting nerfed because of burst even though we're underrepresented. Monks are getting buffed because as a new class they are underrepresented. I have no problem with Warlock or any class nerfs, but just because Monks aren't as prevalent as DKs when they were introduced doesn't mean there is an issue.

Also, I am loving the Monk feedback. I have a low-level Monk I am working on and he seems unkitable and incredibly mobile (he is MW and at 45). This wasn't a QQ post, it HONESTLY was just to assure Monks and players (from the spec/class combos above) that I do not think Monks are as horrid as people lead on.

-Zaef, Kel'Thuzad
Reply Quote
02/02/2013 12:53 AMPosted by Zaef
the problem here is skilled Monks outshine a majority of players. I've seen well played Monks and their uptime is amazing.

02/01/2013 11:45 PMPosted by Reqy
The simple explanation is our uptime is awful, our mobility is amazing.

Go ahead and take a peek at who said that. :3
huehuehue

02/02/2013 12:53 AMPosted by Zaef
Warlocks are getting nerfed because of burst even though we're underrepresented.

Warlock nerfs are because of PvE more than PvP, but okay.

Blood fear is getting nerfed because blood fear is stupid and overpowered as !@#$.
Edited by Punched on 2/2/2013 1:06 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Orc Monk
12275
02/02/2013 12:53 AMPosted by Zaef
Also, I am loving the Monk feedback. I have a low-level Monk I am working on and he seems unkitable and incredibly mobile (he is MW and at 45). This wasn't a QQ post, it HONESTLY was just to assure Monks and players (from the spec/class combos above) that I do not think Monks are as horrid as people lead on.

I do agree that a good monk will shine, and that we are not as bad as a lot people claim, but the buffs were still needed.

As for your monk, MW is a healing spec, you're not being kited because you're not trying to stay on your targets. Also because people at that level don't have all their abilities to escape/CC.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Monk
9940
Quite simply, I do not understand why I see Blizzard saying (and players complaining) that Monks are (a) underrepresented in PvP and (b) are kitable. Warlocks are underrepresented yet some of our abilities are considered OP, so they are getting nerfed. Okay, but with what compensation? Monks are underrepresented yet are getting no nerfs, just buffs. Okay, but how is this the same?

There's nothing to disagree with about monks being underrepresented. They're clearly underrepresented as both MW and WW in arenas. That said, the top tier players with monks next patch are probably going to wreck face. I know as a (mostly) RBG MW I'm salivating at the 5.2 changes. I'm already amazing at RBGs and now I'm getting a baseline 20-yard paralysis, RoP, chi-free aoe heals, better mastery orbs, etc.

But I don't know that blizzard even cares about a few players being a bit too good as monks, because it seems to me like they just want to balance the players in general? Seems kinda dumb to me, especially considering how new monks are, but that seems to be their logic and I'll agree the buffs seem a bit much for 5.2.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
6715
02/01/2013 07:00 PMPosted by Kagg
Spinning Fire Blossom is the ranged root you are talking about, but it requires you to "skill shot" it so to say much like Charging Ox Wave and can easily be eaten by pets or other targets that are "red". There is a minor glyph that now makes it a target-able ability but removes the snare making it all but useless.


Side topic, does anyone ever notice SFB actually target players randomly. One case I had a mage blink to the right of me when I casted it, it made a complete turn about and hit him with the root. Which I'm not complaining, yet sometimes it'll chase after a toon that I don't want it to hit. Try to fire it straight and it curves towards someones pet. Doesn't happen all the times just sometimes.

And no I don't have the glyph, haven't even bought it.
Reply Quote
80 Draenei Paladin
0
Put a Monk in a stun and see him fall over. At least Warlocks have defensive cooldowns that are usable in stuns. Monks do not.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
7160
All the hate in this thread. Nobody likes to need nerfs, but the problem here is skilled Monks outshine a majority of players. I've seen well played Monks and their uptime is amazing. So, as in my original post, nerfing or buffing based on "representation" in arena or RBGs is slightly problematic. Warlocks are getting nerfed because of burst even though we're underrepresented. Monks are getting buffed because as a new class they are underrepresented. I have no problem with Warlock or any class nerfs, but just because Monks aren't as prevalent as DKs when they were introduced doesn't mean there is an issue.

Also, I am loving the Monk feedback. I have a low-level Monk I am working on and he seems unkitable and incredibly mobile (he is MW and at 45). This wasn't a QQ post, it HONESTLY was just to assure Monks and players (from the spec/class combos above) that I do not think Monks are as horrid as people lead on.

-Zaef, Kel'Thuzad


You are funny.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]