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I willing to have a discussion here because I agreed with your last post, so lets talk
I really don't know. I mean Disc shields while mastery stacked and in high end raid gear are already shielding for pretty big amounts. I don't think it would balanced to have an additional 30% added onto the rest of this. For example, my priest who is in no way geared (475) shields for just under 60k. I'm just speculating here, but I'm making an educated guess that in full HM gear, you'd be shielding for close to, if not over 100k per PW:S. By all means point out if my numbers are wrong here, but that is already a 5th/6th of a tank's hp. and Additional 30% on top of that (mind you this would all be scaling more and more with gear in later patches) and we're talking 130k shields. Just about enough to make it a viable (minor) tank cooldown, allowing them to take an extra stack of Assault on Blade Lord.
I can see that being a really nice change for low gear levels, because when I was gearing up in 5mans, having my shield evaporate was not nice, but with the gear scaling this patch, and I'm guessing next patch too, I don't see it working in highly geared environments.
But let me know what you think and why.
When Mastery heavy, I'm at about 99k on my shields, so your speculation of 130k shields is definitely appropriate. The closest CD example I can think of is MW's Cocoon; my co-healer's absorbs about 300k—so a bit over twice the amount.
Because Cocoon is considered a very weak (ie: arguably minor) cooldown, we'd be talking about a very weak analogue of a very weak cooldown.
For something on a less-than-15-second cooldown (I believe about 8, if you're constantly dropping Greater Heal on the tank), it might be too strong. However, I don't believe it would be, and I think it would encourage using Discipline more often as a dedicated tank healer.
You only gain Rapture if the shield breaks, not if it simply expires. What you're proposing would effectively neuter our tank healing ability, since we most often put PW: Shield on the tank to proc Rapture, and they're ALSO the most likely to have 3 stacks of Grace on them due to us single-target healing the tanks more than anyone else.
If by an entire tier, you mean drastically behind for a short time, with the pack (Holy and Disc) for a time, and then drastically overbuffed (Disc) for a time, then okay.
I suppose we're also just going to ignore all the Resto Druid threads and the Monk nerf reaction threads?
1 Blood Elf Priest
The spec needs more interaction between its spells and so I would prefer to have PW:S stacking and being improved by Grace by 15-30% (prob 30% to reduce confusion) rather than a flat 40% buff. Things like IF/AA affecting SS has made the spec feel more well rounded and balanced (not balanced as in class balance), and generally more intuitive to me. Things that increase healing, such as AA and stuff like Grace and Test of Faith (the low health talent proc) should increase our absorbs.
I would also like to see PW:S being affected by our crit rating, the way that SS is - so a flat % increase rather than a double proc like we had in an old set bonus. If this means that Mastery or SP scaling would be reduced, I'd be ok with that. I just hate that PW:S will be a spell that is only effected by Mastery directly but at the same time is totally devoid of crit scaling.
Obviously, this is just wish listing for 5.3.
I would love Renew to always proc DA or be turned into a pure Absorb over Time. It heals for about 11k per tick in my gear as Renew so 1 GCD for 44k plus Mastery bonus over time seems reasonable for low damage periods.
Borrowed Time I agree should be improved to make us want weave spells and not just PW:S Spam. Increase Haste by 10% on instant spells, 20-25% on cast time spells for 5 seconds or until you have completed a cast time spell.
The change I hate the most about Rapture is not the reduction to 150%, but the loss of its interaction with our trinket and other personal Spirit bonuses. External bonuses like MTT is totally understandable because that was OP. However, I will miss those little tricks of deciding to wait on shielding the tank for a few extra seconds because I know the ICD on a trinket or the CD on a clicky trinket will be off in a few seconds. Without that, I'd be happy to see it as just a self buff that refreshes 2% max mana every 3 seconds for 12 seconds every time PW:S is cast, consumed or dispelled. It would be non stackable, but guarantees 8% mana every 12 seconds as long as it always refreshed. Rapture as just a 12 sec ICD is not very intuitive and is not supported very well by the basic UI, whereas buffs/debuffs generally are.
Losing DA from PoH is going to pretty much destroy us. Having SS not scale with mastery is just adding insult to injury. Disc healers will be dead in 5.2 if the current changes go live. Any disc priest who wants to raid will be forced to go atonement. Even then heals will be sub par.
They should have just lowered regen and lowered DA to 30%. Instead they are gonna render us basically useless.
Please explain why. I've actually gone on the PTR and checked this all myself and right now if I were to try and take my toolkit as it is and apply it to any of the high damage fights I am currently doing, not only would I not be able to keep up, by my raid would be wiping.
Again I am talking about 25man raids that specifically work on heroic content.
Seriously though. Disc is broken in it's current incarnation. I said it the day I saw these buffs hitting (the buff to PoH output + the DA buff to 50%). The problem isn't that we are getting nerfs, it is that we are getting nerfs without compensation. Disc is still the only healer without a raid heal (excluding our talents). PoH is our only serious spell to look to while AoE healing and it only looks serious when modified by other spells (SS and IF).
So please, help me understand how you disagree with me so I can understand your vision of the future for our class.
God if they did that it would be 4.0.6 all over again.
For those who don't remember, PW:S had it's mana cost bumped but it's output also bumped. Then we proceeded not only to have a roller coaster of nerfs and buffs (Remember when PW:S had a 30sec duration), but other classes got nerfed also so a raid of the right comp couldn't feed a single Disc Priest unlimited mana.
WE NEED TO STOP BUFFING JUST ONE OF OUR SPELLS.
Disc needs more than 1 AoE heal and it needs spell interaction (E.G. if grace can't be a self buff, why can't we do creative things to spread it to other players so that our AoE heal actually heals for something useful).
Coming from the same perspective (25H) and having tested it on the PTR as well, I absolutely agree that there should be some concern. I believe outright removing DA from PoH is a mistake. But let me take a look at my numbers:
Assuming I'm Mastery heavy, assuming a fully effective PoH, and assuming pure non-crit PoH numbers (ie: no DA, no EoL)...
Holy: 74,093 HPS min
Disc: 63,825 HPS min
So we're looking at about a 10,577 HPS difference. It would probably be a bit wider in Holy's favor if we added EoL (15% with my Mastery).
If DA were a flat 30% again and we include a fully effective EoL and DA:
Holy: 85,563 HPS
Disc: 91,589 HPS
So it swings back to Disc's favor with DA hitting for about 13,327 per hit per person, and a 6,026 lead.
Let's bring DA down to 20%:
Holy: 85,563 HPS
Disc: 82,333 HPS
So Holy is back in the lead by just over 3k, and each DA is going to be hitting the target for just under 9k. I think most will agree that 9k isn't going to make anyone want to roll PoH, even assuming we have the resources to do so after the Rapture change.
Of course, you also have to assume heavier PW:Shield use, so I'd argue that we could/should get DA back at 15%, which is a small enough number to avoid us scaling too well.
Swinging back up to no DA, I'm giving a semi-educated guess that Disc will be about 10%, maybe 15% on the outside (assuming a burst damage model that doesn't fall in line with Disc's SS) behind Holy on healing. I think 10% is okay and, as unpopular an opinion as it may be, I think it's okay to be behind on numbers because we bring so much utility with Pain Supp, Barrier, SS and Atonement. 15% I'm not so sure about, but that would almost certainly be on fights that don't cater to us—meaning fights that do (which will probably be continuous/semi-continuous damage so our DA crits are actually used) will likely see a lower-than-10% disparity.
I also think the disparity will be lower at the 10M level, because I absolutely see more PW:Shield use there than in 25. I'm also, for that matter, seeing the potential for more [glyphed] BH use at the 10M level for some fights.
Edited by Elethia on 2/2/2013 11:32 AM PST
Every patch is set in stone. Once Blizz puts changes to a class on the PTR, you can expect that the class will go live with those changes. As someone who has experienced their development process since the original Beta I can say that Blizz is pretty clueless and THINKS they have an idea of what they are doing, but will put things live with HUGE imbalances that were already pointed out on Beta and then make knee jerk reactions/buffs/nerfs to balance things... which will then remain that way until the next major patch.
I will make this promise now, Disc will go live with the majority of these changes intact and be notably behind all other healers in output every fight except gimmick +modifier fights.
GC says he doesn't want to do too many changes in the middle of the expansion, but the change to PoH is a massive change that vastly changes the way Disc Priests will not only gear but play... and change them in a bad way for 25man raids.
The problem is... your comparison doesn't include Holy's other AoE heals. Check out all the ranking Holy Parses on high AoE damage fights and you'll see a very strong spread in AoE spells with CoH, Lightwell, Sanc, Divine Hymn and T6 talents all healing for a very solid amount. Remember Holy's Sanctuary Chakra gives them a 25% boost to AoE healing (which suggests you are doing something wrong to get the numbers you are getting as a 64k PoH for Disc should be ~79k for Holy).
Sure Disc might be a bit behind in PoH healing, but you are forgetting that they have no other AoE heals... which will allow Holy to massively pull ahead in the AoE Healing department.
Um, Atonement isn't utility. It's a !@#$ty amount of damage that also heals. A smart heal and with huge range... but a smart single target damage based heal... still not a utility.
Barrier is fantastic for the fights the raid collapses... but for the majority of Heroic Content I've been doing it has been universally useless as the raid is never really stacked up. Honestly though, DH would have been a better tool for nearly every progression fight because it has range where PW:B does not.
Pain suppression is an incredible cooldown... but so is GS. PS requires you to plan to stop damage, GS allows you to react to it (and occasionally plan for it).
The only true utility is Spirit Shell and while it is amazing in it's current form, it scales like %^-* on the PTR... hitting for 30k a person. Given that I can get out ~7 PoHs while using PI, we aren't talking about it being the same utility it used to be (for example on Blade Lord before a Strike, I could easily apply a SS to every person in the raid, now I will really only be able to put a reasonable shield on two groups). So while SS will still be strong for 10mans, it will be incredibly weak for 25s given how little it does now.
Edited by Poena on 2/2/2013 11:49 AM PST
My side-by-side comparison doesn't. My semi-educated guess does. I was considering all spells (which I thought I indicated when I mentioned both PW:Shield and BH). There's definitely the possibility that I'm wrong, and the gap is larger (which is okay with me, because it means my argument for bringing DA back at 15% is that much stronger), but no one should be discounting our incredible utility.
It's also problematic to say that we have no other AE heals, when we have both PoM and our level 90 spell. We have no spells like CoH, yes. However, it also looks like Blizzard is going to want us using PW:Shield more often during AE situations, and BH should also see at least some situational use.
Edited by Elethia on 2/2/2013 11:49 AM PST
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