Shadow PvP Changes: A Veteran's Perspective

90 Undead Priest
2205
First of all, this is a new character, so I know I don't look like much. However, I started on a new account in December and in the past have run 2k+ in all brackets.

I am also aware that there has been varied and sundry commentary already made on the as-written changes to shadow priest PvP. I understand that, but I'm making the thread anyway.

My thoughts, just kind of in order of the patch list:

Halo will no longer hit enemies that are in stealth.


As much as people complain, this is a reasonable change. Halo has a very large range and its ability to knock rogues/druids out of stealth in arena is a little too much. Especially given how critical to them their opener is.

Angelic Bulwark's Spirit Shell can no longer be dispelled.


This is moronic. Not the change, but the fact that this is being addressed but the fact that Angelic Bulwark itself is STILL ABLE TO BE DISPELLED. It's one of our prime self-defense talents and it's useless against any class or comp that can purge.

Devouring Plague now deals its damage evenly through its duration.


This, I assume, is geared towards PvE somehow or to reduce our "enormous burst". As it stands, it's a terrible change for PvP. This change makes dispelling DP top priority for healers and starkly reduces the chance that it will be able to deal even mediocre damage before being cleansed. (On a side note, our burst is entirely RNG, making it effectively much weaker than timed and controlled burst such as BM Hunters' spells or warriors' spells in arena.)

Glyph of Mind Spike only works from Mind Spikes that aren't instant casts from Surge of Darkness.


You know, I'm not sure why this glyph became a target. I'd always assumed that it was INTENDED to be paired with Surge of Darkness and that was the whole gimmick. Altering this glyph generates one problem and one big question: How are Spriests supposed to keep up with the huge instant cast damage of, say, mages when we have to channel or hard cast everything? And who even uses mind spike regularly except people who are leveling or killing useless adds?

Flash Heal and Binding Heal will heal for 30% less when cast by Shadow Priests.


This one's caused a lot of consternation, but honestly it's completely valid. Our heals are pretty strong right now, especially with some lucky Surge of Light procs. That's not to say that they should be balanced AROUND those procs, but we still do pretty well for ourselves compared to other hybrids.

I don't see this int he official patch notes right now, but I've also heard tell that Dispersion is able to be locked out in the Shadow school, which is BAD. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD.

Dispersion is our "Oh, !@#$" button and one of the primary times it's necessary for us to use it is when we're liable to get interrupted (due to being melee trained, counterspelled and frost nova'd, etc.). This is a killer to our durability and is frankly unwarranted, especially if Phantasm is also going to get nerfed. Which brings me to...

Phantasm. Really?

On the Overpowered Scale of 1-10, this one struck me as about a 2. And the worst part is the consolation price we're being handed, two more seconds of snare immunity. That's not the primary use of Fade anymore, Blizzard. It's a CC-killer, a survivability tool, something to keep that Chaos Bolt or Deep Freeze or Counterspell or Polymorph from going off. We neither need or want 2 more seconds of slow immunity, especially not at the cost of losing our self-obscure. I'm just not sure where the wisdom in this nerf is coming from.

TL;DR: A couple of the spriest changes are justified, but many of them are heinous and unnecessary. Blizzard needs to step back and get a handle on what's really important to our class and what it's true strengths and weaknesses are.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
3915
Writing to say that I have nothing to say after reading that. :P You summed up my feelings perfectly. Thanks.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Pretty much agree with you on all topics.

The only changes that could be warranted is our healing in Shadow spec, and Maybe Halo knocking people out of stealth. (Though, I love not having to mind sear all the time because of it.)

If the Mage and Warrior changes can get reverted, so can the Shadow changes.
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90 Human Priest
13095
I'm probably still going to dust off this toon for pvp in 5.2 despite all of this bs, very eloquently summed up in the op.

I trust in the ability of the Priest lobbying sector to keep this level of mediocrity from persisting for too long.
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90 Troll Priest
12925
1) They vastly improved the range at which rogues can attack with their openers with 5.2.
2) Halo has a very high mana cost and a very long cooldown.
3) Halo only has a 30 yard range - it's not nearly as good at breaking stealth as rain of fire (which isn't being touched)

Halo actually makes stealthers have to think about when and how to attack. Getting the opener in arena is clutch. If anything - stealth in it and of itself is a broken mechanic. Rogues and Ferals shouldn't automatically be given the opener. They should have to work for it - like every other class does.

I disagree with your analysis of Halo however you make some solid points and I agree with most of everything you said.
Edited by Natallya on 2/1/2013 12:44 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
2205
1) They vastly improved the range at which rogues can attack with their openers with 5.2.
2) Halo has a very high mana cost and a very long cooldown.
3) Halo only has a 30 yard range - it's not nearly as good at breaking stealth as rain of fire (which isn't being touched)


I agree that it's certainly not an overpowered ability, but I am saying that I can understand Blizzard's ideas behind nerfing it and will bow my head.

I'd certainly be willing to take the very small hit from Halo to avoid being pounded into a mush by some of these other nerfs.
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90 Goblin Priest
6615
Another veterans perspective as it relates to shadow spec and pvp...

•Priest •Halo will no longer hit enemies that are in stealth. NO BIG DEAL LOSING IT BUT NOT OP BY ANY MEANS.

•Angelic Bulwark's Spirit Shell can no longer be dispelled. DON'T CARE.

•Devouring Plague now deals its damage evenly through its duration. THIS IS THE ONE THAT PISSES ME OFF. IT IS NOT OP COMPARED TO OTHER BURST WE SEE FROM OTHER CLASSES. THE FACT IT CAN NOW BE DISPELLED PISSES ME OFF EVEN MORE.

•Dominate Mind now has a 1.8-second cast time, down from 2.5 seconds. DON'T CARE.

•Angelic Feather now has a 6-second duration, up from 4 seconds. DON'T CARE.

•Body and Soul now has a 3-second duration, down from 4 seconds. DON'T CARE.

•Power Word: Solace has been replaced with a new talent: Solace & Insanity •For Shadow, this ability causes Mind Flay to gain the Insanity effect when it's cast on a target with 3 Shadow damage-over-time spells on it. Insanity increases the damage of Mind Flay by 33% per Shadow Orb consumed. DON'T CARE BELIEVE IT IS BETTER SUITED FOR PVE BECAUSE THEY JUST STAND THERE MOST OF THE TIME WHILE IN PVP WE ARE ALWAYS ON THE MOVE.

•Glyph of Mind Spike only works from Mind Spikes that aren't instant casts from Surge of Darkness. DON'T CARE ONLY BECAUSE I DON'T USE THE GLYPH.

•Shadow •Flash Heal and Binding Heal will heal for 30% less when cast by Shadow Priests. DON'T CARE AS MY UNDERSTANDING IS THE INCREASE IN PVP POWER WILL OFFSET THIS. I DON'T SEE THIS IN PATCH NOTES THOUGH CAN SOMEONE CONFIRM?

Of all of the above. I can live with all except the Devouring Plague change. CHANGE IT BACK! Or as a warrior or mage might say....Revert the damn thing.

I do not see anything in patch notes regarding Dispersion or Phantasm but have seen posts regarding nerfs of these as well. Can't find them in patch notes so if someone could post that would be great!
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90 Night Elf Priest
7980
Hello I am 2.3k Shadow Priest that has been around since Wrath and I'm telling you that shadow will still be playable next season, nerfs and all.
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90 Undead Priest
18740
02/01/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Raelska
TL;DR: A couple of the spriest changes are justified, but many of them are heinous and unnecessary. Blizzard needs to step back and get a handle on what's really important to our class and what it's true strengths and weaknesses are.


please revert the changes to phantasm and dispersion before its too late
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90 Undead Priest
7740
As a relatively new Priest, I'd like to just say that the nerf to Phantasm was what was over the top. DP and healing I could handle, Mind Spike I kinda just shrugged off (I already use SW: Death for Poly/Rep breaks).

Since I already get trained in BGs and Arenas, and Void Tendrils is literally only good when I can follow up with Fade/Phantasm (for casting and charge/grip dodging), I really don't know what to say. Kinda funny how these patch notes started off with GC saying, "We're afraid Priest might be flying under the radar", and are ending with them reverting 90% of the Warrior changes, and going full bore on Priest nerfs.

Started MoP planning on leaving for FFXIV. Shadow was so fun even without full t2 gear that I was almost convinced to stay. I guess thanks Blizzard for helping make that hard decision for me?
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2 Blood Elf Warrior
0
Originally, I was thinking "what's the big deal? Can still be fun". But then I thought about it. Nerfing our burst turns us into purely a dot class. Which means we just have to outlive the other person. But a nerf to healing as well, kills that. It totally relegates us to healer or support. Minimal self defense and minimal ability to be on the offensive end means we have no realistic chance anymore.
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90 Draenei Priest
12785
They wanted to nerf us, I can understand that. What I don't understand is the need to go overboard. We took some nerfs already, but what they are doing now is messing up our utility. Fade/phantasm and disperse is our oh !@#$ buttons. Counter spell and the silence from locks have a shorter cooldown then our silence. The other major issue that I have is the change to damage for devouring plague. This is clearly a pvp nerf, there is no denying that. It is also a stupid nerf if coupled to the mind spike nerf. My playstyle for pvp is to try and have as many insta cast spells as possible for burst to be relevant. In that case, our mobility and burst has been nerfed with the glyph of mind spike nerf. The devouring plague nerf is worse. This is our MAIN BURST ability. If I can't burst with that, the what am I suppose to burst with. This change is stupid. Mages have frost bomb with icy veins, shamans have ascendance and now shamanistic rage, arms has reck with avatar and banner, locks have chaos bolt and dark soul, hunters pop there zoo, death knights have pillar of frost, and priest have devouring plague and shadowfiend. Shadowfiend is a 3 minute cd, so what we have afterwards is devouring plague. By taking that burst component away, what are we but a dot class with no burst. This is a mistake that ultimately Blizz will have to fix. Take it from me, I only pvp on this toon and I consider myself very active in pvp, and I'm telling u these nerfs combined cut to deep. If I had to pick I would say revert the devouring plague nerf with phantasm. I can somewhat stomach the mind spike nerf and healing reduction. For mind spike, I'll just keep the talent, and be forced to cast mind blast (although an appropriate nerf would be to just reduce the cast time of mind blast so that it can still be interrupted). For dispersion, sorry, but that nerf I can't stomach. It's our oh %^-* button, and that means that when my back is up against the wall, I can say oh !@#$ and pop disperse without being locked out of it. Well, that's my 2 cents
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90 Pandaren Priest
12910
Blizzard has no idea how to nerf Shadow Priest OPness and I dont say myself GC said it himself.

Q:just curious, what are you looking at that makes you think shadow priests are OP in pvp? It seems that we get more nerfs based on a projection of what you might think is the case, then classes that were/are OP. What about shadow makes you think it's over powered? I still feel like I get focused every game I play, and you nerfing my escape tool kit, when I don't ever see how priests had superior escapes.

GC A:There’s always an element of that in PvP. For PvE, we have a really good idea of how much damage everyone can do in every situation. That’s harder to generate for PvP and not even super relevant. We do look at who is winning a lot in PvP. We do it a lot ourselves to try and understand why. We also try to pay a lot of attention to player feedback, especially those skilled PvP players whose opinions we respect, but also the guy just doing pickup BGs who still deserves to have fun. In all of those cases, the names that keep coming up are Frost, Arms, Shadow and maybe BM.

Frost and Arms are taking some big nerfs. BM has a couple of little ones. With Shadow, I’ve tried to be honest that we’re not exactly sure of the right thing to hit. There isn’t anything there like Shockwave or PoM+Ring of Frost that feels totally broken. It’s a lot of little things that add up: damage, healing, utility, survivability. Utility we really don't want to hit and damage isn't too high in PvE. At the moment, we've nerfed burst a little, healing a little, and made some of the survivability mechanics less potent. We'll see how that feels.

All they doing is pleasing some scrubs that QQ about class being strong in LFBGs and RBGs, and only reason Shadow Priest are "strong" is that players ignore them in BGs.

After testing 5.2 changes I can say this to blizzard:

-You nerf Shadow Priest healing saying is too strong well let me ask you this is WW Monk self healing balanced? or a Warlock Absorb, damage reduction, and healing balance? or a DK? so far this 3 classes have way greater self healing that Shadow Priest ever had yet you nerfing only Priest.

-Phantasm is OP for giving shadow Priest 3 sec of being untargetable, while roues can have their way with any caster class with cloak making them untargetable to caster classes and not only that a rogue can keep a caster in chain of CCs until kill silence,stun,blind,silence,stun,cloak, and kill yet is fair

-Glyph of Mind Spike is the worst idea ever since is not only a nerf to Shado in PvP but also in PvE is not enough Shadow has to rel on RNG to proc and get those instant cast but now you have to make it a hard cast mandatory? and if your intentions are to keep nerf then you might as well remove glyph since it becomes useless and is only a waste of space. The only Glyph we had that was slight Dps increase and you kill it, all other Glyphs are crap already so now Shadow Priest no longer need to worry about glyphs

-Nerf to Dispersion? really why dont you put Paladins bubble and mages Ice block in their respective spell schools too? that would make it balance right? that way there be no survival tools in game and those ones I know of but i know monks have one as well just dont know names.

My point is they kill or hardest hit (DP) nerf our heals nerf our scape tool nerf our survival tool nerf our mobilty all that shadow priest will offer in rated PvP will be mass dispell and dots with easy to interrupt and get shool locked channle spells
Edited by Lykorys on 2/2/2013 6:37 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12910
•Power Word: Solace has been replaced with a new talent: Solace & Insanity •For Shadow, this ability causes Mind Flay to gain the Insanity effect when it's cast on a target with 3 Shadow damage-over-time spells on it. Insanity increases the damage of Mind Flay by 33% per Shadow Orb consumed. DON'T CARE BELIEVE IT IS BETTER SUITED FOR PVE BECAUSE THEY JUST STAND THERE MOST OF THE TIME WHILE IN PVP WE ARE ALWAYS ON THE MOVE.

Never a Sahdow Priest stands still in raiding so that talent is not even good for PvE
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Yes. I predict the Dispersion nerf won't really be felt that much, especially among lower ratings.


GC on Twitter.

lol
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90 Undead Priest
2205
02/02/2013 05:11 PMPosted by Kyzr
Kinda funny how these patch notes started off with GC saying, "We're afraid Priest might be flying under the radar", and are ending with them reverting 90% of the Warrior changes, and going full bore on Priest nerfs.


I know, right? I'm not someone who minds being underpowered... I mean, I played elemental shaman in serious arenas during early Cata. That's, like, the DEFINITION of underpowered.

The thing is, I just don't get it. Given the state of the game, I felt that SPriests as a class were fun and balanced and nothing much needed changing. I was satisfied that, if I played well, I could perform at a high level, and yet I still had notable weaknesses.

I'm very unhappy with the severity with which Blizzard has responded to what was, if anything, a very minor degree of OPness. Some nerfs would've been fine--as I said, I agree with some of them. But they really went overboard nerfing us so much with no compensation.

EDIT: They didn't even nerf the right spell, which was Void Shift. Like, really?
Edited by Raelska on 2/2/2013 7:09 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
7740


I know, right? I'm not someone who minds being underpowered... I mean, I played elemental shaman in serious arenas during early Cata. That's, like, the DEFINITION of underpowered.

The thing is, I just don't get it. Given the state of the game, I felt that SPriests as a class were fun and balanced and nothing much needed changing. I was satisfied that, if I played well, I could perform at a high level, and yet I still had notable weaknesses.

I'm very unhappy with the severity with which Blizzard has responded to what was, if anything, a very minor degree of OPness. Some nerfs would've been fine--as I said, I agree with some of them. But they really went overboard nerfing us so much with no compensation.

EDIT: They didn't even nerf the right spell, which was Void Shift. Like, really?


When I saw the changes to Shadow Healing, I was dumbfounded, but not upset. I figured that was how they wanted to combat Void Shift, by making it take longer for me to heal up after using it on a friendly.

And your right. People weren't complaining about Shadow healing, just Void Shift. So they nerf everything except Void Shift? What the hell.

Show of hands, who would take this version of Void Shift, if they would revert everything else except DP burst:

  • Void Shift - Swap health percentages with friendly party or raid member. 50% of the health is swapped instantly, while the other 50% is applied as an 8s heal over time effect.
  • Instead of a max Heal we're talking a 50% Heal, with a HoT that can be dispelled and reduced via Battle Fatigue and Mortal Strike Effects.

    So, while they could actually address why players don't like playing against Shadow Priests, they just duct tape a nerf bat to a person with epilepsy and introduce a seizure while they're standing atop a Twister™ board with Priest abilities instead of colored dots.
    Edited by Kyzr on 2/2/2013 7:28 PM PST
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    90 Undead Priest
    2205
    Void Shift - Swap health percentages with friendly party or raid member. 50% of the health is swapped instantly, while the other 50% is applied as an 8s heal over time effect.
    Instead of a max Heal we're talking a 50% Heal, with a HoT that can be dispelled and reduced via Battle Fatigue and Mortal Strike Effects.


    *Raises hand.*
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    90 Undead Priest
    10435
    02/02/2013 12:16 AMPosted by Venicide
    TL;DR: A couple of the spriest changes are justified, but many of them are heinous and unnecessary. Blizzard needs to step back and get a handle on what's really important to our class and what it's true strengths and weaknesses are.


    please revert the changes to phantasm and dispersion before its too late


    The big problem with phantasm (and the reason why every pvp spriest chooses it) is that it's really horrible talent tier. Feathers and the sprint on bubble are completely worthless for pvp, because 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time you are snared by any one of the 1309580132958320592092358023958023958230598230592580925385098 snares present. Phantasm is the only one that removes snares, and actually sets a shadow up to try and escape. One or both of the other options needs snare suppression baked into it to even come close to being a viable option for pvp.

    As far as dispersion... This is easily the single dumbest change in the patch. Shadow depends on hardcasts.... in fact, blizzard has guaranteed this with the mind spike glyph nerf. If I'm forced to hardcast mindblast and mindflay, how the hell is getting every single defensive I have locked out not completely crippling? Shadow is very easy for melee to train as it is... This change CANNOT GO LIVE.

    Now my other big beef with this patch is the claim that Shadow was behind mages and warriors to be nerfed, and both of those classes had their biggest nerfs reversed already, while shadow is slated to receive bigger nerfs than anything those 2 classes where slated for.

    Finally, I'd like to point out that Rogues, DK's, and WindWalkers where all buffed substantially and all three of those classes are hard counters for a shadow 1v1. That alone can be a drastic shift in overall balance, and needs to be taken into consideration.

    -Dro
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    90 Undead Priest
    2205
    02/02/2013 10:33 PMPosted by Drozul
    If I'm forced to hardcast mindblast and mindflay, how the hell is getting every single defensive I have locked out not completely crippling?
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