Of Ret, RNG, and Divine Purpose

90 Human Paladin
9735
So, in a recent tweet, GC said that they are convinced "Rets would complain about RNG being forced on them" if they ever gave us Divine Purpose back.

I don't like using Twitter myself, otherwise I'd reply to him on Twitter, so instead I'll write this here and hopefully he sees this.

I was one of the many Ret Paladins who complained about too much RNG back in Cataclysm. Yes, I was one of those Ret Paladins.

But if you look up my Guild (plus its sister one on The Scryers (US)), you'll notice something. Every single Paladin has Divine Purpose selected.

Why would I do that when I complained about RNG, you ask?

Very simple:

Cataclysm Ret and Mists Ret are two completely different animals. Divine Purpose ITSELF has changed, too!

In Cataclysm, Ret Paladins had Divine Purpose baseline. It once proc'd off of:

Crusader Strike
Judgment
Exorcism
Hammer of Wrath (I think?)
Divine Storm (? Not sure if this proc'd it or not)

Now, Divine Purpose procs off of only World of Glory, Templar's Verdict, Divine Storm and Inquisition.

Also, Holy Power gain is much faster in Mists of Pandaria, than it was back in Cataclysm.

Why did we complain about Divine Purpose back in Cataclysm, but yet think it is OK in Mists? Well, it is very simple.

Back then, Ret Paladins had...

1). Avenging Wrath.
2). Guardian of Ancient Kings.

Along with..

3). Inquisition.
4). Zealotry.

#3 and #4 cost Holy Power to use (Zealotry required 3 after a patch/hotfix). Already, this makes the class very complicated, WITHOUT any RNG at all. You had to keep track of all of these cooldowns and timers, Holy Power generation was slow compared to now.

However, take a COMPLICATED class and add in Divine Purpose, which COULD proc off of any of your basic attacks. In some battles this was awesome! You did ridiculously good DPS. However, when the RNG decided that you were not going to be king of the DPS meters today, you did ridiculously LOW DPS or anything in-between.

So we had an over-complicated class with lots of timers, COMBINED with the huge RNG factor of Divine Purpose.

However....

Now in Mists of Pandaria....

1). Zealotry is now a Talent with a Cooldown that does not require Holy Power.
2). Inquisition is still there (unfortunately. Could you guys please get rid of this and build the damage into the other abilities, baseline? kthx).
3). Avenging Wrath is still there (and I think it is fine IMO). You can even take a talent to buff it.
4). Exorcism is always instant cast with a small chance for its cooldown to be immediately finished. (MUCH better than Cata's model!!)
5). No Guardian of Ancient Kings for Ret anymore? At least if we have it I can't find it in my spellbook...
6). As mentioned before, Divine Purpose procs off of finishers, not builders.

All of this stuff combined, makes Ret a lot less complicated than it was back in Cataclysm. I don't mind Divine Purpose and its RNG when it has a MUCH LESS impact on my DPS. When I get a proc, that's awesome! If I don't, I don't mind because at least now, it doesn't take 30 seconds+ to build 3 holy power like it did before. Also, Art of War is no longer anywhere near as important as it was back in Cataclysm.

That is why, if you made Divine Purpose baseline now, I don't think people would mind it so much.

The reason why we hated Divine Purpose (IMO) back in Cataclysm, was because you were taking something that was already complicated as all crap, AND you added RNG to that mess, AND said RNG was a very BIG factor in our DPS. Now that Divine Purpose is nowhere near as powerful or important as it was before, it won't make-or-break our DPS and doesn't make the class feel so dang complicated.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8030
02/04/2013 12:10 PMPosted by Hirai
5). No Guardian of Ancient Kings for Ret anymore? At least if we have it I can't find it in my spellbook...


Ret still has GoAK.
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90 Human Paladin
9735
02/04/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Corvala
5). No Guardian of Ancient Kings for Ret anymore? At least if we have it I can't find it in my spellbook...


Ret still has GoAK.


I thought it did because I saw people using it, but despite how many times I open the spellbook I can never seem to find the stupid thing AND the hotkey button I had for it was cleared when the MoP Pre Patch went live. So that made me assume it was removed. But then I started to see people with those in the battle and I was like ".......wut?"

I'll look in my spellbook again... did they change the icon of it or something?
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90 Human Paladin
8415
It's still in my spellbook, right in between Flash of Light and Hammer of Justice like it should be. (The icon hasn't changed, either.)
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90 Human Paladin
9735
02/04/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Keten
It's still in my spellbook, right in between Flash of Light and Hammer of Justice like it should be. (The icon hasn't changed, either.)


I'll look again maybe I was just blind.

But either way the rest of the post still stands.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19235
Why do all the paladins in your guild have it? It's the worst of the three for ret, not that great for prot, but by far the best for holy. Are almost all the paladins in your guild holy or do they do nothing but quest, making an extra cooldown kind of underwhelming for ret?
Edited by Cayse on 2/4/2013 12:40 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9735
02/04/2013 12:39 PMPosted by Cayse
Why do all the paladins in your guild have it? It's the worst of the three for ret, not that great for prot, but by far the best for holy. Are almost all the paladins in your guild holy or do they do nothing but quest, making an extra cooldown kind of underwhelming for ret?


They all quest, except for this one. For questing, DP really kicks butt compared to the other two talents, lol.

It might not be the most awesome for raiding, but yet there are times if DP procs several times off of itself, it is a pretty good damage boost. *shrugs*
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90 Human Paladin
8920
I don't understand what Gc means by forcing rng on us, if it's baseline it would help sustained damage, why on Earth would we be annoyed?
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90 Human Paladin
15265
Of the 3 raiding rets in my guild, 2 of us use HA, one uses DP

RNG should be like it is now, a choice, not forced upon the rest of us.

02/04/2013 01:02 PMPosted by Blazeyheart
I don't understand what Gc means by forcing rng on us, if it's baseline it would help sustained damage, why on Earth would we be annoyed?


Would it? Our balance again would be balanced around the random proc, while having a potential dps increase, reality doesnt work out like that, it could be DPS neutral to dps without it, or it could be a loss if it doesnt proc enough to make up its weight.

Thats the issue with DP.
Edited by Paladinchaz on 2/4/2013 1:05 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9770
For raiding, I find its better to use Divine Purpose until you get the 4pc bonus (reduces Avenging Wrath cd by 1min) at which point the synergy with wings and HA is extremely strong (without having HA sit on cooldown for an extra minute)

For PvP, arena HA is 100% necessary to do any burst damage. For random bgs I've been using DP lately, just for the passive survivability increase (dem 1HP WoG procs)
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90 Human Paladin
9735
Would it? Our balance again would be balanced around the random proc, while having a potential dps increase, reality doesnt work out like that, it could be DPS neutral to dps without it, or it could be a loss if it doesnt proc enough to make up its weight.


1). If they made DP baseline and added another talent in there to replace DP, then DP would be 100% gain. You wouldn't be losing anything.

2). DP is not as important to your DPS as it was back in Cataclysm, because 1). Not as many chances to proc it, 2). Your rate of HoPo gain is much faster now so it makes much less of an impact.

The problem myself and other Rets are facing, is that we like DP the way it works in MoP and we don't like having to give it up for a 2-3min cooldown talent even if those two talents DO perform better. I just... don't like doing that. I don't like cooldowns, I like abilities, especially passives, that are always there.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17610
02/04/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Ayfo
For raiding, I find its better to use Divine Purpose until you get the 4pc bonus (reduces Avenging Wrath cd by 1min) at which point the synergy with wings and HA is extremely strong (without having HA sit on cooldown for an extra minute)


And Sanctified Wrath is even better with 4pc. Regardless, you'll be switching these around depending on the fight.
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90 Human Paladin
15265
02/04/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Hirai
1). If they made DP baseline and added another talent in there to replace DP, then DP would be 100% gain. You wouldn't be losing anything.


Thats what you're not understanding, its not a 100% gain, they will balance our base DPS around having a finisher proc again. They're not going to give it to us for 'free'

02/04/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Hirai
2). DP is not as important to your DPS as it was back in Cataclysm, because 1). Not as many chances to proc it, 2). Your rate of HoPo gain is much faster now so it makes much less of an impact.


Which is exactly why it doesn't need to be baseline.

02/04/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Hirai
The problem myself and other Rets are facing, is that we like DP the way it works in MoP and we don't like having to give it up for a 2-3min cooldown talent even if those two talents DO perform better. I just... don't like doing that. I don't like cooldowns, I like abilities, especially passives, that are always there.


And thats why they made DP a choice, because there are those of you that like it, and there are those of us that dont like it.
Edited by Paladinchaz on 2/4/2013 1:47 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
02/04/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Hirai
The problem myself and other Rets are facing, is that we like DP the way it works in MoP and we don't like having to give it up for a 2-3min cooldown talent even if those two talents DO perform better. I just... don't like doing that. I don't like cooldowns, I like abilities, especially passives, that are always there.


So...Keep DP? Don't use HA/SW? I mean, what's so hard about that?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19235
While ultimately they would like to increase our sustained, and DP does that, they would also have to nerf our burst in order to do that. That's not a debate, that's actually been said by GC. It also isn't likely to happen because even if given sustained buffs, people would complain too much about burst being nerfed. Which has also been said.

Making DP baseline would increase our sustained, but then we'd also have either SW and HA available plus a third option, which would nominally increase our sustained but fairly significantly increase our burst.. which is exactly what isn't wanted or needed.

02/04/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Ayfo
For raiding, I find its better to use Divine Purpose until you get the 4pc bonus (reduces Avenging Wrath cd by 1min) at which point the synergy with wings and HA is extremely strong (without having HA sit on cooldown for an extra minute)


HA is significantly better than DP prior to 4p, and SW is significantly better than DP with 4p. The actual gap between DP and the other talents this tier is pretty big. With the T15 bonuses, it's almost as good, but the other two are still better.

02/04/2013 01:51 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
So...Keep DP? Don't use HA/SW? I mean, what's so hard about that?


^

If you like the ability then take it. I like the ability. I use it in both my specs, for everything, because I just like it and I'm not doing anything that is going to suffer from my choice.

But it is not an excuse for low sustained damage, and will not solve sustained damage issues.
Edited by Cayse on 2/4/2013 1:56 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9735
02/04/2013 01:51 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
The problem myself and other Rets are facing, is that we like DP the way it works in MoP and we don't like having to give it up for a 2-3min cooldown talent even if those two talents DO perform better. I just... don't like doing that. I don't like cooldowns, I like abilities, especially passives, that are always there.


So...Keep DP? Don't use HA/SW? I mean, what's so hard about that?


And suffer all of the "LOL DP? Go HA/SW, noob!" comments?

......meh.

I'm just waiting for the day somebody says that to me in LFR or Heroics... *grumble*
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90 Human Paladin
8415
02/04/2013 05:07 PMPosted by Hirai
I'm just waiting for the day somebody says that to me in LFR or Heroics... *grumble*

I've never had anyone mention it to me in LFR. Although they usually have no reason to complain about my DPS, so... *shrug*
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90 Draenei Paladin
16880
02/04/2013 05:07 PMPosted by Hirai
And suffer all of the "LOL DP? Go HA/SW, noob!" comments?


Who cares?

If this new talent system has accomplished anything it's taken the fire out of the argument "You're specing wrong!!!111".

Use the talents you enjoy, unless you're on the bleeding edge of content it won't matter.

I don't like SW even though I should be using it since I have the four piece. Most of the time, with the occasional exception, I stick with HA.

Because I like HA.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19235
02/04/2013 05:07 PMPosted by Hirai
And suffer all of the "LOL DP? Go HA/SW, noob!" comments?


I've never had anyone say that to me who didn't have something far worse for me to point out about them.
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90 Human Paladin
9735
Hmmmm.

I'll keep going with DP then... if nobody says anything, then awesome.

Let's hope it stays that way then.
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