DK Mobility

90 Night Elf Death Knight
11260
So this is a discussion of DK mobility baseline vs other melee classes. Yes yes I know apples to oranges but I am not really saying we need other class's levels of mobility, just something, ANYTHING.

As it stands now DKs have 0 mobility baseline.

Here is a list of other class's abilities

Feral: shape shift, sprint
War: leap, charge(I include charge because A) it cant be countered anymore and B) it actually moves you), intervene
Rogue: sprint, vanish, cloak (yes I include vanish cloak because they break/clear roots/snares)
ret: freedom, emancipate, cleanse
ww: 2 rolls, flying serpent kick
enh: ghost wolf

So how is this fair? How is this balancing classes fairly? The squishiest class in the game has the worst mobility. Not only do all these classes have a base line mobility ability but they also gain access to another (or more improved) mobility talents ontop of getting things like roots and snares.

Moving DA to baseline for all specs, removing asphyxiate(cause lol cc on a mobility teir that no one takes because our mobility is bad enough and strang is better), and putting the old desecration in that teir with another mobility talent would go a long way to fixing our terrible pvp representation numbers(rbg representation is high cause of lol HB cleave) . Not only would this help fix DKs but wouldn't make them OP either considering how bad their defense is as well.

Just thought I should leave this here.
Edited by Èverfrost on 2/6/2013 11:08 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
8075
Eh, I don't PvP, but in PvE being the least mobile melee in the game makes me kind of sad. Wish we could glyph death grip to bring us to the enemy.
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90 Human Death Knight
6630
02/05/2013 09:52 PMPosted by Connekt
Eh, I don't PvP, but in PvE being the least mobile melee in the game makes me kind of sad. Wish we could glyph death grip to bring us to the enemy.

or to allies?
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90 Human Death Knight
13115
Make Death's Advance baseline and put in the old form of Desecrated Ground where it puts a spot on the ground that slows people that walk through it when you Plague Strike/Necrotic Strike an enemy. Boom, 100000 times better mobility than before. Really, that's all Blizzard needs to do.
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90 Human Death Knight
18310
Ranged damage is supposed to be our compensation, but you can't howling blast spam your way away from pressure.

It's like we have the offensive half of mobility, but not the defensive half.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7645
02/06/2013 12:37 AMPosted by Khone
Make Death's Advance baseline and put in the old form of Desecrated Ground where it puts a spot on the ground that slows people that walk through it when you Plague Strike/Necrotic Strike an enemy. Boom, 100000 times better mobility than before. Really, that's all Blizzard needs to do.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14590
If they brought back Desecration on ONLY NS wouldn't that be balanced?

With NS costing a Death Rune, you wouldn't be able to "spam" it to the extent we use to be able to, would require a min of what something like 7 secs to get the first one off from when you were in range to attack in the first place?

I still thing DA should be baseline and have a glyph to break/make us immune to roots for its duration (with a glyph we are forced to make a worthwhile trade off though someone would probably still QQ)

Have Desecration replace DA on the talent tier, or make it baseline for UH make Chilblains baseline for Frost and then make that a CC tier rather then a mobility since if your leaving asphyxiate there that would make more sense.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
6960
It's true that, for a melee class, DK's have downright abysmal mobility. But, you know what, that's ok. We're not supposed to be a mobility class. To me, the philosophy behind the class is "We'd rather fight you up close, but we can fight at range if we have to." In order for this philosophy to work, we need good defensives for both melee and ranged situations, as well as a decent ranged offensive toolkit.

There are two problems with this. One is that our ranged toolkit is very limited, especially for unholy. For a spec that doesn't rely much on weapon damage, UH sure has a lot of abilitiesthat require the DK to be in melee range. The second problem is that, while we have good defense against magic damage, we have very little protection against melee.

Unholy should have a reliable method to do damage from a range. There are a couple ways to do this. One is to give them a passive that extends the range of Plague Strike. Another is allow Sudden Doom to proc from our ghoul's attacks.

As for defensive buffs, Boneshield should be baseline for the class and IBF should have its cost removed, its DR buffed, or is CD reduced. All three would be fantastic, but I suspect that would be too much.
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90 Human Death Knight
8360
You mean Death's Advance isnt good enough for you? REALLY? It STACKS with UH pres. Saying we dont have the mobility of other classes is.... wrong. Just because you're no Ret paladin doesn't mean you need buffed. As for defensives... we have PLENTY. Bone shield on top of it would be too much. Thats why it was TAKEN FROM unholy and given to Blood.

Bascially Im getting that you want all the blood def cds, with the damage of frost.

No, Just no.

Not like you can't spam chains of ice for pvp anyways.

EDIT Went and tested for exact numbers.
In UH pres, you move at 149% speed. And cant be slowed below 70% of that (which is 100% speed btw) and when you activate it. You cant be slowed. At all. Tell me again how we arent mobile.

Deaths Advance should NOT be baseline, it's simply too powerful.
Edited by Agrais on 2/6/2013 9:40 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
6960
You mean Death's Advance isnt good enough for you? REALLY? It STACKS with UH pres. Saying we dont have the mobility of other classes is.... wrong. Just because you're no Ret paladin doesn't mean you need buffed.


We DON'T have the mobility of other classes. We are the only melee without any root break, which DA does not do. Again, I'm ok with having low mobility. We are still magic wielders after all.

As for defensives... we have PLENTY. Bone shield on top of it would be too much. Thats why it was TAKEN FROM unholy and given to Blood.

Bascially Im getting that you want all the blood def cds, with the damage of frost.


What are you talking about? AMS is great, sure, but IBF is woefully underpowered, Strang is worthless against melee and our only baseline CC, and level 57 talents are situational at best. Death Strike's heal is barely worth the cost, and Necrotic Strike is totally dependent on the opponent being an idiot, meaning our only worthwhile heals as Frost/Unholy are the level 60 talent tier. BP guts our resource generation, and I don't want to hear about being a plate class. Armor is a meaningless stat in this day and age.

I think baseline bone shield or a buff to IBF isn't much to ask for.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14590
02/06/2013 09:51 AMPosted by Karaahl
You mean Death's Advance isnt good enough for you? REALLY? It STACKS with UH pres. Saying we dont have the mobility of other classes is.... wrong. Just because you're no Ret paladin doesn't mean you need buffed.


We DON'T have the mobility of other classes. We are the only melee without any root break, which DA does not do. Again, I'm ok with having low mobility. We are still magic wielders after all.

As for defensives... we have PLENTY. Bone shield on top of it would be too much. Thats why it was TAKEN FROM unholy and given to Blood.

Bascially Im getting that you want all the blood def cds, with the damage of frost.


What are you talking about? AMS is great, sure, but IBF is woefully underpowered, Strang is worthless against melee and our only baseline CC, and level 57 talents are situational at best. Death Strike's heal is barely worth the cost, and Necrotic Strike is totally dependent on the opponent being an idiot, meaning our only worthwhile heals as Frost/Unholy are the level 60 talent tier. BP guts our resource generation, and I don't want to hear about being a plate class. Armor is a meaningless stat in this day and age.

I think baseline bone shield or a buff to IBF isn't much to ask for.


Hell AMS isn't even as great as it use to be with all the caster burst flying around now, it takes what 2-3 globals for most of them to do 1/2 our HP worth of dmg.

Yes its great against dots, yes its preventing dmg we otherwise would have taken, but once its down we are SoL. Not to mention Chaos Blot and Chaos Wave go threw it WHILE reducing the amount it absorbs.

Edit: It would be like if DbtS or evasion ext. broke on 2 oblits (2h frost).
Edited by Delzoun on 2/6/2013 10:54 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11260
Yes DA stacks with UH presence, problem is even with DA you still need to spam CoI which is bad for 2h frost and UH (1 sacrifices obil damage and the other desyncs runes for less damage). So the issue that arises with DA is that there will be times you can't put up CoI and thus your target runs faster than you or you spam CoI so much your damage goes to hell. Either situation is not ideal.

The problem I have with 0 mobility is that we don't get jack all else, our defense is the lowest, our utility is the lowest, and our cc is just above those 2. So we are 1/5(the one being good damage out of, damage,utility,mobility,cc,defense and for a class to be successful in pvp you need at least 2 of those excellent or 3 good)

So no having a slight amount of range pressure doesn't make me any happier we have 0 mobility and have 0 ways to get away from melee.
Edited by Èverfrost on 2/6/2013 11:15 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
8360
You don't need a root break with CoI/DG. Ill refer backto my statement about us not being Ret paladin. IBF is on par with every other non tank ALL dmg reduc (not to be confused with MAGIC dmg reduc) and let's not forget stun immunity. DA prevents you from being slowed..by everything. I'll take being rooted a few seconds over being slowed all the time.

And tell me what class besides a druid runs faster than 149% ? God forbid we lose our auto slow(desecrated Ground) and you all forget how to play.

Necro Strike worthless? So, -30% casting speed is worthless? Have people forgotten how to interrupt?

AMS isn't just for dots, it's also for the prevention of CC's... I mean... can't have it all, but we're pretty close.
Edited by Agrais on 2/6/2013 1:07 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
13115
@Agrais

You seem to be ignoring the fact that there are such things as Frost DKs and that they are not sitting in Unholy Pres. Frost DK's are very hindered in terms of mobility and taking melee damage. As for defensive cooldowns, look at a Warrior (Rets are in the same boat as DK's for the most part).

Warriors have Shield Wall (60% reduc.), Die by the Sword (20% reduc. + 100% parry), and passive Defensive Stance (25% reduc.). The fact that Die by the Sword is a viable cooldown against both melee AND casters makes it already better than IBF (20% reduc. + stun immunity). Sure, the stun removal is a good thing, but it really only comes in use if you're in a Deep Freeze/Smoke Bomb and about to be globalled.

By adding in Shield Wall (which can't be disarmed like a DK's Death Strike spam) they already have better defensives against melee than DK's do, even when not including Defensive Stance which Warriors can sit in 24/7.

You might say, "just sit in Blood pres", but that doesn't help either when you can't put out any damage as Frost because Frost Strike's runic power cost goes up significantly. So somehow it's okay for Warriors to sit in their version of Blood pres. and have no consequence?

Edit: Forgot about Lichborne compared to Second Wind. Short and sweet, Lichborne heals are unreliable and are outdated in terms of mechanics; Lichborne is mainly used as a Will of the Forsaken copy. As for Second Wind, it can provide more healing over an entire match than a DK as a stand-alone ability.
Edited by Khone on 2/6/2013 2:19 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14590
You don't need a root break with CoI/DG. Ill refer backto my statement about us not being Ret paladin. IBF is on par with every other non tank ALL dmg reduc (not to be confused with MAGIC dmg reduc) and let's not forget stun immunity. DA prevents you from being slowed..by everything. I'll take being rooted a few seconds over being slowed all the time.

And tell me what class besides a druid runs faster than 149% ? God forbid we lose our auto slow(desecrated Ground) and you all forget how to play.

Necro Strike worthless? So, -30% casting speed is worthless? Have people forgotten how to interrupt?

AMS isn't just for dots, it's also for the prevention of CC's... I mean... can't have it all, but we're pretty close.


So I hate to pull this card.... but from everything your either a Random BG hero or a caster alt. I mean seriously the massive amount of just plain wrong information your posting boggles my mind if you actually main a DK...... Now that that's out of the way I'll constructively deconstruct your post.

CoL/DG is by no means enough short of fighting another class/spec with poor mobility. If your using CoI your loosing out on dmg because of (and I know this might be a surprise) how runes work, they haven't recharged independently since wrath and thanks to our T75 if your not hitting anything they are on their base charge speed. Soooo once you finally get on your target as UH your either desynced, as frost you "might" get 2 Oblits once you start dumping FSs. DG has a 25 sec CD that means if you use it as a gap closer and they use their opener 3 secs after you get to wait another 20s before you have a chance to hit them again if they are a class with a snare or root (which is most of them).

IBF is on par with most classes MINOR ONE MIN CDs, almost all other classes have another flat dmg reduction in addition OR an absorb/heal/ button that FORCES you to target swap IN ADDITION they have no meaning full resource cost. With IBF you would have to blow a 5min CD to be able to use it at the start of a fight and then you have to predict when the stun is coming. Yea its a stun immunity but honestly who the hell wants an immunity tied into their only defensive CD making it by far lower then many other classes in addition to giving it a ridiculous CD for what it provides.

Now on to DA, yea you cant be slowed lower then 70%.... Well guess what? That means the class with the lowest mobility gets to sit at 70% movement speed most of the time every 24 out of 30 secs. And I would rather be stuck in the slow with a "chance" my partner can stun them so I can catch up rather then stuck in a root out in the open getting decimated by all those casters 40yds away.

DESECRATION not desecrated ground (you know that ability that didn't exist until it became a 90 talent, so anyone that has played a DK since wrath hell even for all of cata would know its desecration, since you know it was around for 2 full expansions vs the 1 tier desecrated ground has been around) was not an auto slow, It required you to be in range and then have the runes to use its associated strikes, rogues passively put up a 70% (not looking it up so don't care if you call me out I know its at least 50%) slow on auto attacks and can apply it with a 40yrd attack if they take ST. Now I know you can't compare two classes without including their full tool kit so lets look at the control aspect of these two classes.

Could we chain CC to keep a player within desecration? No.
Can a rogue chain CC to keep them with in range to keep applying the poison? Yes.

If you left desecration would you still be slowed? No.
If you get out of mele range are you still slowed? Yes, until the poison expires.

NS worthless? No but not for the reason your saying. NO ONE CASTS ANYMORE. GC stated it himself for the reason to keep Lock and Mage blankets in the game. This means the slow part of NS is barley whats in effect and besides most of the time the healer is not your kill target. You use NS for the healing debuff and stack it as high as you can. Now we can spam this 6 times as UH right? WRONG it now costs a Death Rune so at best you are getting 4 with a full rune bar and ONLY if your death runes have charged after dumping 2 blood and 2 frost into Festering Strike.

Have people forgotten how to interrupt? No, But A) no one casts anymore B) You have to be in mele range to kick (and you know we have poor mobility), in addition to funny fact Mind Freeze is a spell, this means we can be silenced out of our kick.... and C) There are so many "prevent spell lockouts" flying around now depending on comp even when your going for a kill your not going to be able to kick the healer anyway.

Finally AMS, No its not just for Dot's. But who out side of Random BGs is trying to use a SPELL CC (mele CCs still be applied) when that giant green bubble is rotating around us? Now factor in its only up for 5 sec, so we can be freely CCed in the other 40, we can be silenced out of being able to use it. And as you neglected to respond to it can be broken in 2-3 globals by most casters in addition to 2 very hard hitting lock spells not even being effected by it BUT still reducing it absorb.

Almost all high ranking arena players have stated we need help, Another who is one of if not the best DK in the world was only able to get as far as they did in the Yaz tourney because they were playing TSG (aka the one comp that has enough power to it to cover up DKs weakness) and in the Bliz tourney one team with a DK was knocked out early thanks to the DK being blown up in a global, and the other had to have their DK swap to a mage. If we were really well off the best of the best would not have to swap classes to even put up a fight.

Edit:TL;DR: Rant about how Agrais has no clue what they are talking about.
Edited by Delzoun on 2/6/2013 2:33 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
4985
I've been preaching this for months now. I could stand being a little bit squishy if we got desecration to replace either DA or asphyxiate and make DA baseline. DA is just too important to pass up. I also mentioned in one of my earlier posts that I felt like DA should be able to work as a freedom for us. Make the extra effect into a glyph and just increase the CD or something.

Edit: I like someone's idea better about making CB and desc basline for frost and uh respectively then making DA baseline across all specs while making that tier into a CC tier and leaving asphyxiate in. They could give us a disarm along with something else. That would actually make asphyxiate more desirable based on comp. As it stands, asphyxiate will still be passed on by the majority.
Edited by Powerflux on 2/6/2013 2:57 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
14575
+1 for death's advance baseline. Our mobility is a total joke.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14590
I've been preaching this for months now. I could stand being a little bit squishy if we got desecration to replace either DA or asphyxiate and make DA baseline. DA is just too important to pass up. I also mentioned in one of my earlier posts that I felt like DA should be able to work as a freedom for us. Make the extra effect into a glyph and just increase the CD or something.

Edit: I like someone's idea better about making CB and desc basline for frost and uh respectively then making DA baseline across all specs while making that tier into a CC tier and leaving asphyxiate in. They could give us a disarm along with something else. That would actually make asphyxiate more desirable based on comp. As it stands, asphyxiate will still be passed on by the majority.


I'd prefer it to end up old DnD fear talent, Disarm/silence protection/reduction (maybe 50/20% respectively) passive, Asphyxiate. Ends up being CC related, gives us something we use to have but more counter able since it use to be a horror, a chance to help us vs CC that really hurts us, and what we have now (though doesn't fit with the current theme of the tier).
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
6960
02/06/2013 02:47 PMPosted by Powerflux
I like someone's idea better about making CB and desc basline for frost and uh respectively then making DA baseline across all specs while making that tier into a CC tier and leaving asphyxiate in. They could give us a disarm along with something else.


For the love of god no. No more CC. Blizzard should be removing that crap, not adding more.

Agree that CB should be baseline for frost, DA should be unholy specific and have a root break. IMO Asphyxiate needs to go, along with all the other stuns with a cooldown of less than 45 sec. Instead, we should get a tier dedicated to modifying Death Grip, similar to how warriors have a tier for modifying Charge.
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90 Human Death Knight
13115
02/06/2013 07:27 PMPosted by Karaahl
Death Grip, similar to how warriors have a tier for modifying Charge.


This. The set bonus for PvP is nice, but the window of opportunity is slim and sometimes easily wasted.
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