Tricks of Our Trade: Blame it on Aedrik

10 Goblin Rogue
4875
Posted this is Hail's thread, and I shall post this here too.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-kill-hunters.png
<3
Buyer's remorse in full effect now.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
02/10/2013 04:24 PMPosted by Frai
Buyer's remorse in full effect now.


That's not good!
Well, now may have been a bad time to resub. Should have waited till 5.2! I wanted to prep my character for 5.2, which is why I subbed early. :P
02/10/2013 05:18 PMPosted by Knocrogue
Well, now may have been a bad time to resub.


I immediately thought that 10 seconds after hitting the reactivate account...
10 Goblin Rogue
4875
Yeah, I resubbed like an hour before my computer started having startup issues. I still haven't had time to fix it. I loaded it up on my laptop but it's just not the same.

The boredom is causing me to talk way more than normal.

Stay for 5.2! It looks sexay for Rogues.
Edited by Troelvah on 2/10/2013 8:18 PM PST
90 Undead Rogue
7385
02/10/2013 08:16 PMPosted by Troelvah
Stay for 5.2! It looks sexay for Rogues.


Imo, it's only because of gear scaling.
90 Human Rogue
16930
So I ended up moving and won't have internet access at home for at least a month or two. I can use an ancient laptop and still get starbucks internet if I'm desperate, but for the most part, I'll be incommunicado. My sub runs out march first as I won't have enough time to be on the internet, let alone the forums here, to justify staying subscribed.

I hope everyone is well and is having a good time. For all of you back east, stay warm.
90 Undead Rogue
10145
02/10/2013 12:35 AMPosted by Fierydemise
Eclipse also makes using java less painful but really lets be honest if you have to use java you are already in for pain.

We are using java, and previously just used jedit.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
So I ended up moving and won't have internet access at home for at least a month or two. I can use an ancient laptop and still get starbucks internet if I'm desperate, but for the most part, I'll be incommunicado. My sub runs out march first as I won't have enough time to be on the internet, let alone the forums here, to justify staying subscribed.

I hope everyone is well and is having a good time. For all of you back east, stay warm.

Have fun settling in and doing normal people things for a bit. Whatever those things are. :)
90 Troll Rogue
21045
02/10/2013 11:13 PMPosted by Haileaus
We are using java, and previously just used jedit.

Long programming language rant incoming, sorry in advance.

I don't like java for a number of reasons but my biggest beef with Java is as a teaching language because it is wholly inadequate in many respects.

An intro programming class is a basic concepts class, you need to learn about variables, control flow, code structure and the like ideally without getting bogged down in important, but more complex concepts. Java doesn't really let you do that, consider the basic java hello world program
public class HelloWorld {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Hello World");
}
}


How many key words in there are magical black boxes? It might be easier to list what isn't a blackbox, out.println(), ok that makes sense you are printing a line as an output and "Hello World" ok thats your message. Everything else in there is more complex to explain.

Java forces you to deal with code that you have no understanding of and just becomes meaningless boilerplate just to learn the basics. This pushes too many schools to emphasize OO way too early. OO is certainly important but its also a mess of subtle terminology that can very easily be dumped on students well before they have mastered the basics. Try to explain the difference between int and Integer to a fresh cs student, its a mess without digging into much more complex concepts. This inverts the priority of understanding and can cause problems down the line when dealing with other programming paradigms because the understanding OO is so closely linked with understanding of basic programming concepts.

The next problem is the java libraries are a mess for new programmers. Lets say you want to print data to a file what do you use? Quickly googling will give you info on FileWriter, BufferedWriter, OutputStream and others without any indication which is actually appropriate. In an effort to preserve backwards compatibility the java library is incredibly bloated with deprecated or subtly inappropriate solutions for common problems, for the experienced programmer this isn't an issue they know what they should use and why but for a new programmer this can be intimidating.

Java's large library also related to my third problem with java as a teaching language, the library is so fully featured it can hide a lot of important implications from you. I don't want to sound like a "I walked to school in the snow uphill both ways" crotchety old person (I'm in my mid 20s after all) and I'm not going to link Joel Spolsky's (in)famous java rant because it does sound like that but java does make things too easy. If you can just use Scanner you don't need to write your own tokenizer and while string parsing is rarely fun it should give you important insight into what is actually happening when you parse strings and the pitfalls you can run into writing something like that can be quite instructive.

Part of this complaint may be because I'm a hardware guy but java hides too much of the low level stuff if you continue using it even after you should start to be exposed to it. Its far to easy when programming in java to ignore concepts like memory management or even more fundamentally seeing how the abstraction that a programming language maps onto real hardware. In C you are very rapidly exposed to the idea that chars and ints are both basically the same thing, in java you may never come to that realization and the myriad implications there of. I'm not going to say pointers as a technique are essential but pointers as a concept help you realize how the real computer holding your data works, am implication that can help you write more intelligent code.

I have my own problems with java as a language outside of the teaching realm, its verbosity and lack of features I consider really fundamental (unsigned values for one) but I recognize its worth. As a teaching language however it just doesn't work.

Also a word of advice if you have read this far through my rant, try Notepad++ if you are working on windows, its the best GUI text editor around and it isn't encumbered by all the feature bloat of something like eclipse. Its also a lot faster then jedit which is slower then it has any business being.
10 Goblin Rogue
4875
02/10/2013 10:27 PMPosted by Relikar
Stay for 5.2! It looks sexay for Rogues.


Imo, it's only because of gear scaling.
Also yes.

I'm most looking forward to some of the changes as a whole. It's looking more Rogue-friendly.
90 Human Rogue
GSO
11425
I miss you guys!! Hopefully I found an apt and I will have internets and my computer by Wednesday-ish. Fingers crossed. Also there is N O T H I N G to do in Cheyenne, Wy so it looks like I will be playing more again. Time to find a raiding guild.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
02/10/2013 07:18 PMPosted by Frai
I immediately thought that 10 seconds after hitting the reactivate account...


I just looked at your gear.
Maybe you should do some preparation for 5.2! You haven't even stepped in LFR!
Are you Honor capped? If not, make sure you are! I think there will be honor weapons in 5.2. I could be wrong.

Get on that! Now, soldier!
I hate my Ethics class. A lot of the things we learn are kind of like guided interpretations of something that is amazingly abstract, and if you have any form of variation of interpretation that doesn't mirror the professor's you immediately get it wrong. I would know, because the moment I got my midterm back today, all I saw was red ink... everywhere.

Thanks Obama!
02/11/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Knocrogue
Maybe you should do some preparation for 5.2! You haven't even stepped in LFR!


I did on my mage. My rogue is just pure aesthetics now. I log on it and get discouraged by the lack of haste.

Thanks Ghostcrawler!

Side note: Clover resetted the minecraft server Knoc.
Edited by Frai on 2/11/2013 11:22 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
02/11/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Frai
I did on my mage. My rogue is just pure aesthetics now. I log on it and get discouraged by the lack of haste.


Aw. That's unfortunate. :(
5.2 isn't really fixing that issue. Ugh!

02/11/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Frai
Side note: Clover resetted the minecraft server Knoc.


http://nooooooooooooooo.com/
90 Undead Rogue
10145
02/11/2013 12:25 AMPosted by Fierydemise
As a teaching language however it just doesn't work.

Intro classes are now being taught in Python, I am in the last group to learn them in Java. Thoughts? Feeling better about Java now?

02/11/2013 12:25 AMPosted by Fierydemise
Also a word of advice if you have read this far through my rant, try Notepad++ if you are working on windows, its the best GUI text editor around and it isn't encumbered by all the feature bloat of something like eclipse.

I'll ask my prof about this. Funnily enough he mentioned on the first day of class that lots of people will swear by different text editors. You know like some people are die-hard into LISP or those other old languages (though I hear LISP is still used, just can't think of any off the top of my head). I do know that most higher level CS students program in a terminal editor (could be the wrong word but you know what I mean I hope). Also, the computer lab's comps use Linux (Ubuntu but not sure what version), so might not be able to get Notepad++ on it?
90 Undead Rogue
10145
02/11/2013 05:45 AMPosted by Nyex
Also there is N O T H I N G to do in Cheyenne

For a bit I thought you gave us your location, then I saw that place is in Wyoming. Please, we all know nobody lives there!
90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
I hate my Ethics class. A lot of the things we learn are kind of like guided interpretations of something that is amazingly abstract, and if you have any form of variation of interpretation that doesn't mirror the professor's you immediately get it wrong. I would know, because the moment I got my midterm back today, all I saw was red ink... everywhere.

Thanks Obama!

Can you remember any interesting examples? I love thinking about things like this.
90 Troll Rogue
21045
Intro classes are now being taught in Python, I am in the last group to learn them in Java. Thoughts? Feeling better about Java now?

I think python is a very good intro language. It maps about as closely as you can get to plain English so you don't have to get too bogged down in syntax to learn basic concepts. As long as later on you are forced to program in C so you do see how your abstractions map to real hardware it should be fine.

I'll ask my prof about this. Funnily enough he mentioned on the first day of class that lots of people will swear by different text editors. You know like some people are die-hard into LISP or those other old languages (though I hear LISP is still used, just can't think of any off the top of my head). I do know that most higher level CS students program in a terminal editor (could be the wrong word but you know what I mean I hope). Also, the computer lab's comps use Linux (Ubuntu but not sure what version), so might not be able to get Notepad++ on it?

When most people talk about the text editor wars they are referring to vi (or now vim) vs. emacs and yes that can be akin to a holy war. Both are terminal editors and incredibly powerful once you understand them but the learning curve is pretty terrifying. Notepad++ is sadly windows only, I've actually yet to find a linux gui text editor I like as much as Notepad++. Geany is pretty close but its a little too aggressive with auto completion sometimes. Really though if you are using linux primarily as a dev environment you should learn vim or emacs.

On Lisp, Lisp is an interesting language although there isn't all that much done in Lisp nowadays at least as far as production code goes. There are some projects like the Lisp Operating System which are interesting but something you'll ever see in industry. That said Lisp (or its dialect Scheme) are very worth learning because functional programming is a totally different way of programming that can be very useful for thinking about code. If you do want to learn Lisp or Scheme the famous MIT book (available free) is the place to start.

http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
Edited by Fierydemise on 2/11/2013 1:24 PM PST
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