World of Warcraft®

02/01/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Whyvette

In other versions of WoW, there was always another way to progress in the storyline and with gear.

There was? You saw the story of Ulduar, SSC, Hyjal, etc without raiding? How'd you see the fall of Illidan or Lich King without raiding? There's always been a raid rep faction in every xpac (ICC, Firelands, BT, Kara, Hyjal), except there wasn't a raid finder you could complete it in. Though I didn't play at that time, I am still grinding the raid reps from Vanilla. Progression, from a story and gear standpoint, has always had a plateau if you weren't willing to raid, until LFR.

Explain how it was made worse. Cause in all honesty it's just the same stuff. Seriously tell me what was so different in the rep gain in Cata?

During Cataclysm, the raiders did indeed get richer at the expense of everyone else (and there wasn't LFR until the last raid). There weren't entry-level patterns other than PvP. People hit an absolute brick wall unless they were a raider. Then came the Troll dungeons and the abject failure that was the Molten Front (I've posted about how MF was a failure during the MoP beta and how it's best to not repeat "the spire came back--take it again" every single friggin' day).

In other versions of WoW, there was always another way to progress in the storyline and with gear. Not so in Cataclysm, because it catered to raiders and then went into massive spinning because 2 million subs left. Once people hit that brick wall, there was no going back.

There should be multiple ways of progression.

PS--This is coming from a person who did two Ramkahen dailies to Exalted on my Paladin without that character ever setting foot in a single Cataclysm dungeon due to the brick wall. The couple of dungeons were done on other characters. I know what a horrific grind is from doing just two dailies to Exalted. The system in-game right now isn't horrific by a long shot.

All of that just flew over my head because I never encountered any difficulty with that. Raided the first 3 raids in Cata and took break after that. Came back after Firelands dropped. Troll dungeons got me the gear to go into Firelands, got in there but then a tank and healer left the guild so didnt get to do Firelands. And Dragonsoul was just boring.
Molten Front was far from failure though. Sure it gave a limited number of quests (same with every faction dailies) but the way you proceeded through the dailies and unlocking more and seeing more landscape that was blocked when you first show up was refreshingly new.

And you cant say "other versions of WoW". Vanilla, BC, WoTLK was at the epitome of catering to the raiders. BC, all the badass weapon enchants/patterns/everything were in raids. WoTLK all raids were 10/25 so made it A LOT more flexible but still the whole world revolved around raiders (until ToC hit then anyone could get their T9 gear). Cata was the first x-pac where I felt like I was being spoon fed. And MoP I am overweight from all the spoon feeding.

And forget about doing just 2 dailies. Try doing just 1 daily a day to get the Winterspring Frostsaber. That rep grind a pain back in the day.

02/01/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Whyvette

Explain how it was made worse. Cause in all honesty it's just the same stuff. Seriously tell me what was so different in the rep gain in Cata?

During Cataclysm, the raiders did indeed get richer at the expense of everyone else (and there wasn't LFR until the last raid). There weren't entry-level patterns other than PvP. People hit an absolute brick wall unless they were a raider. Then came the Troll dungeons and the abject failure that was the Molten Front (I've posted about how MF was a failure during the MoP beta and how it's best to not repeat "the spire came back--take it again" every single friggin' day).

In other versions of WoW, there was always another way to progress in the storyline and with gear. Not so in Cataclysm, because it catered to raiders and then went into massive spinning because 2 million subs left. Once people hit that brick wall, there was no going back.

There should be multiple ways of progression.

PS--This is coming from a person who did two Ramkahen dailies to Exalted on my Paladin without that character ever setting foot in a single Cataclysm dungeon due to the brick wall. The couple of dungeons were done on other characters. I know what a horrific grind is from doing just two dailies to Exalted. The system in-game right now isn't horrific by a long shot.

The same cata where a non raider could buy over three quarters of a normal mode raid set for VP?

The same cata where 1 million raid spots were lost and where if you managed to keep you raid spot with the rapid collection of VP you could buy every single VP item in 3 months, out of a 9 month content patch even if you didn't raid?

The same cata where you could log on one night a week and run LFR and a couple of 5 mans and cap VP?

Cata had issues because there was too little to do, and it could be done too quickly each week and because there was no sensible gating of non raid gear collection. Not because of stuff being kept only for raiders.

Although I do worry about a complete about face by blizzard. At the moment there is a full VP set for those who don't want to run group content. There is a better set for those who run raid content (be it upgraded LFR loot or normal mode gear).

What is blizzard putting in for those who don't raid to work on in 5.2? They need a complete gear set as well and it has to be better than the i489/i496 set that any active non raider already has.

02/01/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Whyvette

If it requires raiding to get the reputation, then we're right back into the problem that Cataclysm exacerbated.

There have been raid rep factions since vanilla.

02/01/2013 10:28 AMPosted by Bashiok

The raid rep (and their delicious, delicious Valor epics) includes LFR. You will need to kill bosses though to keep progressing it. No more ICC trash rep runs.

So in the LFR rep gain. Do you get rep from trash and boss or just the boss's?

02/01/2013 10:25 AMPosted by Cerylidae

If it requires raiding to get the reputation, then we're right back into the problem that Cataclysm exacerbated.

There have been raid rep factions since vanilla.

If I remember right, every expansion except Cataclysm had at least two reputations that only came from raiding. So I'm really confused about his post.

Ok thank you Bashiok for clearing that part up for me, but I'm wondering: Is there a limit on how much rep I can get per week? Like for example, say I wanted to grind this entire reputation to exalted in 1 single week. Will being locked to that boss in the LFR not allow me to gain reputation with them or will I still get rep credit?

02/01/2013 10:28 AMPosted by Bashiok

The raid rep (and their delicious, delicious Valor epics) includes LFR. You will need to kill bosses though to keep progressing it. No more ICC trash rep runs.

Trash rep runs were fun and have been in the game forever. Don't know why you guys think its a bad thing.

02/01/2013 10:28 AMPosted by Bashiok

The raid rep (and their delicious, delicious Valor epics) includes LFR. You will need to kill bosses though to keep progressing it. No more ICC trash rep runs.

Thanks for clearing this up.

Rep from bosses but not from trash. Fair enough for me.

02/01/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Dethh

The raid rep (and their delicious, delicious Valor epics) includes LFR. You will need to kill bosses though to keep progressing it. No more ICC trash rep runs.

Trash rep runs were fun and have been in the game forever. Don't know why you guys think its a bad thing.

I never found it to be bad, just boring as hell to go clear trash for hours on end to cheese the rep earning mechanic.

02/01/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Dethh

Trash rep runs were fun and have been in the game forever. Don't know why you guys think its a bad thing

I believe in the ptr notes it's mentioned trash gives rep up to a certain point, then only bosses.

With the difference in ilvl between LFR and Normal, they pretty much have to allow us to earn Valor Gear rep via LFR, otherwise mid-patch no one will be able to get an alt geared up enough to participate in normal/heroic raiding.

02/01/2013 10:28 AMPosted by Bashiok

The raid rep (and their delicious, delicious Valor epics) includes LFR. You will need to kill bosses though to keep progressing it. No more ICC trash rep runs.

Because this will be difficult in LFR...?

So, regular raiders will still be running LFR whether they want to or not to min max their rep. :\

Or can you guys do something creative like killing x boss on ANY difficulty gives rep once per week, period?

Please listen to this suggestion and implement it somehow. I'd much rather have a strong gate on the rep than have to run every wing of LFR each week until my rep is maxed.

There have been raid rep factions since vanilla.

If I remember right, every expansion except Cataclysm had at least two reputations that only came from raiding. So I'm really confused about his post.

(C) Molten Core - Hydraxian Waterlords
(C) Zul'Gurub - Zandalar
(C) Ahn-Quiraj - Brood of Nozdormu
(C) Naxxramas (40) - Argent Dawn however I may be mistaken, I was exalted by the time it was released and I got my attunement for free (Pain in the butt!)
(BC) Karazhan - Violet Eye
(BC) Serpent Shrine Cavern - Cenarian Expidition
(BC) Black Temple - Ashtounge Deathsworn
(BC) Mount Hyjal - Scale of the Sands
(WOTLK) Icecrown Citadel - Ashen Verdict
(CATA) Firelands - Avengers of Hyjal

02/01/2013 10:24 AMPosted by Zamm

The same cata where 1 million raid spots were lost and where if you managed to keep you raid spot with the rapid collection of VP you could buy every single VP item in 3 months, out of a 9 month content patch even if you didn't raid?

This did not happen until the very end of the expac. Tier shoulders and helms were not available via the VP guy in tier 11 nor tier 12. There was a big snit about it on the forums also.

The only possible way to be epiced out without setting foot into a raid was once the ZG/ZA gear came out. And that wasn't even tier quality gear. Heck, for me back then, I wanted my full tier 11 four piece- the ZA/ZG gear didn't cut it for me.

Get your facts straight.

(If I'm being braindead on this, I just woke up- blame the lack of enough coffee.)

02/01/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Dethh

The raid rep (and their delicious, delicious Valor epics) includes LFR. You will need to kill bosses though to keep progressing it. No more ICC trash rep runs.

Trash rep runs were fun and have been in the game forever. Don't know why you guys think its a bad thing.

^^^ This.

Although I am guessing they are doing it this way because that would mean that alts can have access to gear (Que 1940's dramatic music.) before doing the earlier content. You know, because they hate alts.

(WOTLK) Icecrown Citadel - Ashtongue Deathsworn

That should be Ashen Verdict

02/01/2013 10:28 AMPosted by Bashiok

The raid rep (and their delicious, delicious Valor epics) includes LFR. You will need to kill bosses though to keep progressing it. No more ICC trash rep runs.

Can you get to exalted just by doing LFR or does it stop giving rep after you reach a certain amount of rep?