New Rep Faction in 5.2 earned from Raiding?

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14 Night Elf Hunter
130

Now THAT is a great idea. Everyone gets the same amount of rep over time, even the people who can't manage to clear normal mode right away. I like it.


Raiders get the advantage of not being forced to do LFR, casuals get raid reputation without actually doing the raid. Win-win and preserves the difficulty options.


Except that players who don't do LFR can't spend their vp because the upgraders are gone.
90 Human Paladin
15265


Raiders get the advantage of not being forced to do LFR, casuals get raid reputation without actually doing the raid. Win-win and preserves the difficulty options.


Except that players who don't do LFR can't spend their vp because the upgraders are gone.


Well its being advertise as a "Raid only Rep", so its not like they're trying to deceive people.

Its also not the only new rep being added in 5.2
Edited by Paladinchaz on 2/1/2013 12:27 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
9345
So here's a question, why have valor gear gated behind rep at all? I definitely see it as a step in the right direction having valor gated behind raids instead of dailies. But it's still a double-tax. You earn valor points, but in order to spend said points, you need to earn rep on top of it.


The whole point of a steady and measured currency to buy items is to offset the RNG of boss loot drops. If you're unlucky you still have this absolute system, and no matter what, you know that in X time you can fill in at least a few of those gaps. The intent of these currencies wasn't as a type of separate loot progression, but that is the way a lot of people perceive it, and certainly some of our designs have even worked to support that perception. The whole original intent in mind though it makes more sense to ensure that you're killing bosses to be able to buy Valor items, and not just farming up Valor from other sources. Of course we could take Valor out of everything but raid kills/completions to avoid that... but Valor is a nice reward to have in a lot of various systems, and lets people pick and choose the ways they want to earn it.

I don't want to imply though that having Valor items on daily quests was in any way a failed experiment. Obviously some of you weren't too keen on having the items behind those reps, and so in 5.2 we're trying this. We may have some mix in the future, we may not, let us know how you think it feels when the patch is live and if the new daily hub is compelling enough to gain your attention without a meatier (ie ilvl based) reward.


I understand your idea, but there is a BIG problem... Valor Cap...

So it will be possible to get access to some item to buy before we get stuck in Valor Cap?
There will be any item at friendly? How much bosses you need to kill to get the first item open to buy?

I understand the idea, but having one or two items available from start makes it more progressive... you have 1 item of valor of higher ilvl to maybe fit that slot you had a normal piece yet, then you go do the first 2 bosses if you are on an "average" guild, then next week you do RF, do the first 3 bosses, and on the 3 week you can get one more item...

If your first item from Valor starts when you are already 3-4+ weeks inside the 5.2, it will suck really bad, because if you drop the items that are available from the raid you will have nothing to expend your Valor into... and it will have helped you in nothing...

Please think about it... 1 slot is not too much to ask... maybe even 2...
A suggestion would be making then cost more valor if you do not have X Reputation for those 1 or 2 initial slots...

Sitting on full valor without anything to do with then is really not fun... =/
Edited by Sàtàn on 2/1/2013 12:30 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
17085
This reminds me of dailies.


Sure, you can loosely apply that to any task with some variance of repetition. Feel free. Except that continuing to fight to take back areas, or retrieve items, or slay ne'er-do-wells generally makes some sense in the context of the narrative in daily hubs. Those damn monkeys stoled muh fruits again! Etc. etc.

Going into a raid and not killing bosses does not.


Just logging into WoW everyday would apply also. The mundane repeated game tasks is part of the relaxation and detox from the real world. Whether you're doing dailies or scenarios or LFR or regular raids or acheeze hunting, there's a level of "knowing" what you're doing that's comforting.

If everything was Brand Spanking New with severe learning curves each and every time you login, you'll be disoriented and twitching from the assault on your senses. Pretty soon you'll be babbling in the corner of a mental ward. A definite game-quit.

I just love that this game continues to change and add different things to do yet stays the same. Buffs and nerfs come and go but the basic feeling of being home always permeates. k maybe after 7 years that's just how you feel. =P

ps. Add a Layaway option to Valor vendors. Pay some every week until you can buy your new pair of shoes before you upgrade your levels in a fit of impulse shopping. Or up our cap.
Edited by Vixie on 2/1/2013 12:30 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
11225
02/01/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Bashiok
I don't want to imply though that having Valor items on daily quests was in any way a failed experiment. Obviously some of you weren't too keen on having the items behind those reps, and so in 5.2 we're trying this. We may have some mix in the future, we may not, let us know how you think it feels when the patch is live and if the new daily hub is compelling enough to gain your attention without a meatier (ie ilvl based) reward.


I can already say I like the sound of this much better than the current set up. I don't mind having to gain a reputation to pick up some good pieces of gear. However, I feel like the factions with daily quests should not be part of that grind. Daily gear should be purchasable upon the desired rep, without a currency unrelated to them. If the gear needs to be less awesome, then that change could be implemented. I didn't care for tabard grinding in Cata, but having only rare quality items available from daily grinds makes sense at the beginning of a new expansion. Anything after that is subject to change. This is just my opinion :)
90 Draenei Hunter
12765

I understand your idea, but there is a BIG problem... Valor Cap...

So it will be possible to get access to some item to buy before we get stuck in Valor Cap?
There will be any item at friendly? How much bosses you need to kill to get the first item open to buy?

I understand the idea, but having one or two items available from start makes it more progressive... you have 1 item of valor of higher ilvl to maybe fit that slot you had a normal piece yet, then you go do the first 2 if you are on an "average" guild, then next week you do RF, do the first 3 bosses, and on the 3 week you can get one more item...

If your first item from Valor starts when you are already 3-4+ weeks inside the 5.2, it will suck really bad, because if you drop the items that are available from the raid you will have nothing to expend your Valor into... and it will have helped you in nothing...

Please think about it... 1 slot is not too much to ask... maybe even 2...
A suggestion would be making then cost more valor if you do not have X Reputation for those 1 or 2 initial slots...

Sitting on full valor without anything to do with then is really not fun... =/


I'm pretty confident Blizzard will have thought this through (especially after the JP gear rep fiasco in 5.0). It'll probably take one to one and a half weeks to get to Friendly, at which point you can buy Bracers or a Ring, but of course, you won't have enough VP to buy either yet (or will have just gotten it in the second week).

That said, if you only want one specific item with VP that can't be gotten until Exalted, then yeah, you will probably cap in the interim.
14 Night Elf Hunter
130
They stated that there wont be any vp gear gated behind the daily faction. And if they rely on crafted gear...my guess is that it will then be raid drop patterns and mats which I can't effort. So we go back to raiders get everything...hopefully not.


This is true, and I think - with how people are responding to dailies that its for the best. I like dailies and have been defending them but even I'm getting burned out. So its break time for a while.

I wonder then - what's the point of adding a new faction if there's no rep rewards though?


There might be rep rewards like MF had, a few for gold with a lesser ilvl, maybe 496. I don't mind the vp gear gated behind a raid faction. I mind that this rep can be earned through mindless LFR which is not really raiding but not through other means. Take LFR out of the equation and it's fine. BTW, not a raider.

I also mind that vp currently is obtainable through other means but with the upgraders gone can not be spend unless I still need gear from the 5.0/5.1 factions which alot of players wont if they kept up capping vp. So either I do LFR (which I wont on a regular basis), stop playing, or loose vp due to the cap.

I guess it's alt time.
Edited by Littledeer on 2/1/2013 12:37 PM PST
90 Orc Death Knight
10860
02/01/2013 11:48 AMPosted by Bashiok
Yes, you gain rep from boss kills once per week regardless of difficulty.


I'm inferring that you'll get the same rep regardless of difficulty. Otherwise, a player could easily screw themselves up by killing an LFR boss early in the week, then getting invited to a more lucrative normal or heroic run later.
90 Pandaren Monk
11225
02/01/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Littledeer
I don't mind the vp gear gated behind a raid faction. I mind that this rep can be earned through mindless LFR which is not really raiding but not through other means. Take LFR out of the equation and it's fine.


I don't think for one second they should change it. LFR is a difficulty some players need to see the content. They are already getting lesser ilvl rewards. It was already stated earlier that anyone who runs normal or heroic versions will not need to run LFR to get the most bang for their buck. It'll be an x amount of kills type of thing. Many, MANY more people run LFR than anything else at this point. Because of this, there would be a large majority who wouldn't even see the new factions and their rewards if LFR was taken out of the equation. I raid normals when I can and LFR when I can't. I don't want to be punished because I couldn't get into a group for normals one week.
90 Human Death Knight
12455
02/01/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Kyrthae
@Waste: Read the posts above yours. You don't need to run LFR if you're already downing all the bosses in normal or heroic. You get the rep once per week per boss regardless of difficulty.

Yes, that extra bit of information got posted while I was composing my outraged screed in blood drawn from my own veins.

That's a great twist on it - I'll only have to LFR the bosses I can't kill on normal mode.

Thanks for the clarification Bashiok - that is good to hear.
14 Night Elf Hunter
130
Nobody who didn't seriously raid did get any reputation for these factions. Lets be honest, the difficulty of LFR is not any higher then heroics or some dailies. In fact it is tremendously easier to be carried through the content then in heroics due to the large amount of players there. So if LFR gives raid faction reputation at the same amount then normal/heroic then there should be other means to get this reputation like Tiller orders.
90 Draenei Hunter
12765
02/01/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Littledeer
Nobody who didn't seriously raid did get any reputation for these factions. Lets be honest, the difficulty of LFR is not any higher then heroics or some dailies. In fact it is tremendously easier to be carried through the content then in heroics due to the large amount of players there. So if LFR gives raid faction reputation at the same amount then normal/heroic then there should be other means to get this reputation like Tiller orders.


I'll direct you to my earlier posts where your elitist mutterings are proven to be a punishment for raiders with more than one toon.
Edited by Kyrthae on 2/1/2013 12:44 PM PST
MVP - World of Warcraft
12 Troll Shaman
60
02/01/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Bashiok
I don't want to imply though that having Valor items on daily quests was in any way a failed experiment. Obviously some of you weren't too keen on having the items behind those reps, and so in 5.2 we're trying this. We may have some mix in the future, we may not, let us know how you think it feels when the patch is live and if the new daily hub is compelling enough to gain your attention without a meatier (ie ilvl based) reward

It seems like the problem here is that people don't like having to do a bunch of dailies to earn reputation to get valor point gear. The obvious solution to me would be to remove the reputation requirements (and maybe adjust the valor point cap if people are getting gear too fast). That way people who don't want to do dailies can still spend justice/valor from the PvE activities they would rather do, and people who do want to do dailies can still get nice rewards and participate in PvE progression.

From what I've seen of the Thunder Isle dailies on the PTR, I love the atmosphere... but I don't have much of an incentive to go there instead of the existing daily quests, yet. Clearly a lot hasn't been implemented, but so far 5.2 has been disappointing for me (as a very casual non-raider who might go see LFR one of these days, but isn't going to be in Throne of Thunder at release) because it puts more limits on my character progression than the 5.0/5.1 daily quest model did.
Edited by Faizaniel on 2/1/2013 12:48 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
8250
02/01/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Bashiok
The whole point of a steady and measured currency to buy items is to offset the RNG of boss loot drops. If you're unlucky you still have this absolute system, and no matter what, you know that in X time you can fill in at least a few of those gaps. The intent of these currencies wasn't as a type of separate loot progression, but that is the way a lot of people perceive it, and certainly some of our designs have even worked to support that perception.

Before MoP even launched the Blizzard staff did talk about the complete removal of VP vendor item upgrades and to be replaced with the VP upgrade system that would give a comparable ilvl boost for those who did not raid. Obviously we can now see this idea did not make it to live, it was however in the minds of many players and is part of why the gating of VP gear behind dailies did not raise big flags because it was not wildly publicized that such was being done. Lots of players came into MoP with the belief that VP gear was dead.

So from your post we could assume that VP gear is here to stay at least for this expansion. This was not made clear coming into MoP and earlier posts from Blizzard staff did say that VP gear was supposed to be a separate area of progression for those who do dailies and that the gear was not intended for raiders at all. Then GC stated months afterwards that this belief was wrong and VP gear is there for raiders who have poor RNG and that the upgrade system was there to get players to continue to play the game after they already got their gear. Quite different from how the system was originally advertised. So definitely a communications and marking gap when it came to systems for spending VP in MoP from pre and post launch.

The whole original intent in mind though it makes more sense to ensure that you're killing bosses to be able to buy Valor items, and not just farming up Valor from other sources. Of course we could take Valor out of everything but raid kills/completions to avoid that... but Valor is a nice reward to have in a lot of various systems, and lets people pick and choose the ways they want to earn it.

I don't want to imply though that having Valor items on daily quests was in any way a failed experiment. Obviously some of you weren't too keen on having the items behind those reps, and so in 5.2 we're trying this. We may have some mix in the future, we may not, let us know how you think it feels when the patch is live and if the new daily hub is compelling enough to gain your attention without a meatier (ie ilvl based) reward.

The whole original intent for 5.2 or coming into MoP? Right now in 5.1 it is the opposite.

Ether you have players farming VP from different sources or you remove the VP rewards from different sources or you make the bulk of weekly VP come from the desired source like the developers did in WotLK which many non raiders during Cata said was the right system. If the items have a VP cost to them then they should not be locked behind reputation at all. PVE and PVP do get treated differently though when it comes to guaranteed vendor gear by the earning of points, they both share this type of reward system and PVPers are not being told to farm x amount of each BG and forcing casual arena players to run BGs in order for them to spend conquest points they have earned and vice versa.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 2/1/2013 1:56 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
11225
02/01/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Littledeer
Nobody who didn't seriously raid did get any reputation for these factions. Lets be honest, the difficulty of LFR is not any higher then heroics or some dailies. In fact it is tremendously easier to be carried through the content then in heroics due to the large amount of players there. So if LFR gives raid faction reputation at the same amount then normal/heroic then there should be other means to get this reputation like Tiller orders.


I don't understand why you need another way to get the rep.
90 Night Elf Hunter
17435
I'm fine with the raid rep using VP rewards, but what you said about lessening RNG irked me a bit. Please, please bring back VP weapons. Or, and this is an idea I've dreamed about forever, let us spend full VP cap, 3000, on an item of our choice (even just an LFR item). Doing a raid over and over and over for a chance at a chance drop gets old really really fast. 25% chance after actually being chosen for loot to get the one item you want -really- sucks, and yes I'm looking at the Sha-touched gun.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10370
Yes, you gain rep from boss kills once per week regardless of difficulty.


Ok, this confused me. Say this week I kill Boss A and LFR, then an hour later, during my raid, we kill the same Boss A on Heroic.

Do I get rep both times: both from LFR and the Heroic kill? Or is it only once? And if once, is the rep the same regardless of the difficulty it was killed on?

I'm worried that if Heroic kills award more rep than LFR, but we only get rep the first time we kill the boss, I'd have to wait to do LFR until we finish raiding for the week so as to maximize gained reputation.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15075
02/01/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Bashiok
So here's a question, why have valor gear gated behind rep at all? I definitely see it as a step in the right direction having valor gated behind raids instead of dailies. But it's still a double-tax. You earn valor points, but in order to spend said points, you need to earn rep on top of it.


The whole point of a steady and measured currency to buy items is to offset the RNG of boss loot drops. If you're unlucky you still have this absolute system, and no matter what, you know that in X time you can fill in at least a few of those gaps. The intent of these currencies wasn't as a type of separate loot progression, but that is the way a lot of people perceive it, and certainly some of our designs have even worked to support that perception. The whole original intent in mind though it makes more sense to ensure that you're killing bosses to be able to buy Valor items, and not just farming up Valor from other sources. Of course we could take Valor out of everything but raid kills/completions to avoid that... but Valor is a nice reward to have in a lot of various systems, and lets people pick and choose the ways they want to earn it.

I don't want to imply though that having Valor items on daily quests was in any way a failed experiment. Obviously some of you weren't too keen on having the items behind those reps, and so in 5.2 we're trying this. We may have some mix in the future, we may not, let us know how you think it feels when the patch is live and if the new daily hub is compelling enough to gain your attention without a meatier (ie ilvl based) reward.


I did rep gains in both ICC and Firelands. The firelands rep was really long due to bosses needed to be killed to increase it further after a certain point. With the valor cap of 3k in place, and given the really long grind for rep, what are we going to do with all that extra valor? Surely it'll take us longer then three weeks to get exalted, and with the gear upgrades being taken out we really have nothing to spend valor on during that period.
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