Are Shaman Healer's really "Bottom Barrel"?

90 Draenei Shaman
3655
02/07/2013 08:14 AMPosted by Mist
Really the best indicator of healer balance is whether or not the top guilds are bringing resto shamans to their progression raids.


Not always. Guilds doing cutting edge progression do a lot of weird things that don't make any sense. Most of it is tied to overpowered mechanics, like 5.0 monks, or current disc priests.


Makes perfect sense to me. Top guilds will bring the strongest healer or healer with most necessary utility for that fight. If they aren't bringing a certian healer at all It's underpowered. If they HAVE to bring a certian healer to every fight then it's overpowered.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/07/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Ðrakthar
Makes perfect sense to me. Top guilds will bring the strongest healer or healer with most necessary utility for that fight. If they aren't bringing a certian healer at all It's underpowered. If they HAVE to bring a certian healer to every fight then it's overpowered.


It is true that it's possible to generalize information based on how top guilds behave, but you still need to be cautious. You can't immediately assume certain conclusions, like a class being underpowered on an encounter, based on the roster alone.

In fact even top guilds have some elements of preferences and seniority that can dictate their roster composition to some degree. I know it's hard for some to believe, but they actually aren't programmed with the sole purpose of maximizing every variable imaginable. Extending that thought to another level: many high end raiders aren't even good theorycrafters. Playing WoW well and theorycrafting don't go hand in hand, despite the tendency to appeal to authority.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
3655
02/07/2013 10:35 AMPosted by Aurinaux
You can't immediately assume certain conclusions, like a class being underpowered on an encounter, based on the roster alone.


We can only go by what has worked. The top guilds find what works at the bleeding edge. If they are bringing x class you can be 100% sure it is viable on y boss. Different guilds will bring different classes, but with enough top guilds a pattern will emerge. While I agree you cant say blood legion brought x class so its overpowered, you can say that if x class is brought for every fight in that tier by every top guild it is overpowered.

02/07/2013 10:35 AMPosted by Aurinaux
In fact even top guilds have some elements of preferences and seniority that can dictate their roster composition to some degree.


With a large enough sample size that can be weeded out. Again I agree that no one instance dictates balance, but all of the top guilds together do.

02/07/2013 10:35 AMPosted by Aurinaux
Extending that thought to another level: many high end raiders aren't even good theorycrafters.


Fair to say, but you bet your !@# the guild leaders and raid leaders are.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
9540
Shamans are great healers, and personally I think every raid should have one. They have the best cooldowns and best utility of any healer atm. If they have a weakness, its that they aren't the best number padders. If stuff goes south though, they are better equipped to save the raid than any other healer.

Also from what i have seen, their healing isnt any less than anyone else. they just dont have a spammable HoT like monks/druids/priests nor shields like paladin/disc.. so like i said, no number padding.
Edited by Bamboozle on 2/7/2013 2:29 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
15890
I heal with a resto shaman. She has awesome cooldowns, amazing mastery, and a mana tide totem. Shaman is my first choice for a co-healer. Really. Some shaman utility requires a bit of forethought; however, priests need groups set up for prayer of healing. Druids need symbiosis before the fight (and can be screwed if their target changes a glyph at the last minute). Monks have positional requirements and a lot of really random healing. The list goes on.

Shaman utility isn't limited to healing utility. What do you suppose heroism plus a stormlash totem are worth to the raid dps?
Reply Quote
96 Tauren Monk
17265
02/07/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Ðrakthar
Fair to say, but you bet your !@# the guild leaders and raid leaders are.


You'd be wrong. Unless you've raided at this level, you have no room to say. :P

You really place too much value on what top guilds do. While I agree that it is important to an extent, there are certain things that you don't seem to understand. Top guilds may stack one class for something as simple as one solitary cooldown, like PW:B, or Clemency. Not due to how strong the healer is, but because of how good a mechanic is on a fight.

Druids are arguably much stronger than the forums would let on, but I would prefer that druid be a moonkin so we could have an extra paladin or disc priest. Things like that.

Literally every class is viable at the bleeding edge level, which means they are MORE than viable at the casual level. The guild still working on normals \ early hardmodes should not be mimicking what they see at the top level. Bring the player, not the class still applies.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/07/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Ðrakthar
We can only go by what has worked. The top guilds find what works at the bleeding edge. If they are bringing x class you can be 100% sure it is viable on y boss. Different guilds will bring different classes, but with enough top guilds a pattern will emerge. While I agree you cant say blood legion brought x class so its overpowered, you can say that if x class is brought for every fight in that tier by every top guild it is overpowered.


I could say a lot about this subject, but for brevity:

1. By inducing one extreme, you're implying the opposite extreme as well: should a raid bring class Z, then the boss will literally never die. This is a hard to digest complement.

2. You've jumped from "viable this raid tier" to "overpowered this raid tier" simply because a class was brought to every fight. That's the kind of fallacious argument that has caused the community to discredit top raiding guild sampling.

3. Even though I currently don't have 37 fingers to verify it, I am confident that 30+7 equals 37. Theory exists abstractly: you can understand a bossfight without participating in it. In fact, top raiding guild sampling is merely secondary evidence to an argument.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
5755
I really enjoy my resto shaman.

That being said I do not top the healing meters very much as I raid with a disc priest and holy pally. People usually stay topped off with shields/absorbs so my mastery doesn't get used too much. When !@#$ hits the fan though and the raid takes huge damage, I am ready with my cooldowns and can pump out tons of healing to get them back up.

It's a great feeling when your cd's save the raid from a wipe when the other healers are struggling with mana. I tend to take it easy and heal where I can without sniping, which keeps my mana pretty high and leaves me ready to blow through it when heavy damage comes in.

The totem utility is a huge part of why I play this class, and I find it very fun.

Sort of wondering if I should swap some of my mastery for crit though!
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
12505
Numbers wise, I think it does depend on if you want 10 or 25 man raids. We're stronger in 25's due to AoE heals. In 10 mans, we're 2nd from the bottom in numbers. After 5.2 when Druids are buffed, I think shamans really will be bottom of the barrel.

That said, I really enjoy my shaman. He's fun and I find the abilities distinct enough from other classes to be fun. There are a few fights that we do really well on, but given the same skill level, other specs have greater potential output than we do right now. This is especially true in heroic 10 man content.
Reply Quote
96 Tauren Monk
17265
02/07/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Stormfist
That said, I really enjoy my shaman. He's fun and I find the abilities distinct enough from other classes to be fun


This is at the core of why anyone should ever play a class.

Fun.

:3
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
8910
At the end of the day after playing since vanilla. I've never seen the resto shaman class as bad as the other healing classes today, especially in 10 man. Even Monks the new class are more superior to a class that has been around for 7 years. That is the mentality of the designers. I know Disc priests are getting gutted. But that still does not help our shortcomings in 10 man. The real reason we will not get buffed up to everyone else. The designers are too afraid to buff us due to our pvp capability as resto.

I hope that they can come up with something to make us competitive. If it doesn't change next tier I think I'm done. It was a good run.
Reply Quote
100 Goblin Shaman
8575
so guys i lost my raid spot do to my low heals i would like to invite any shaman to look at my gear and glyphs please someone help me out here
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
6375
So in some instances the Restoration Shaman is like a "wipe fail safe" that you keep in the back just incase it needs to save the day? And the glorified meters are not for us? That is all acceptable for me. I don't intend on giving my whole life to the game or besting anyone. I merely want to be able to pull my weight and not by that charity slot slowing everyone down. I can play the game, and i learn extremely fast so when it comes to my own personal healing abilities i feel pretty comfortable. My only fear is that i will be turned away or rejected simply because of my class and it's looking from your answers that for the most part that will depend on the raid group in particular.
Again thank you for every bit of advice.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/07/2013 07:56 PMPosted by Ariandira
so guys i lost my raid spot do to my low heals i would like to invite any shaman to look at my gear and glyphs please someone help me out here


Post logs please.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Basically, the primary value of a Resto Shaman is more the buffs and synergy that it provides than it is about actual healing output
-Mana Tide provides a huge amount of mana to every other healer in the raid. At my current gear level, my raid buffed Mana Tide gives every healer 54,000 mana (around 18%) per use. That makes it essentially a 2nd Divine Plea/Innervate/Shadowfiend. That is a big enough difference in raid mana regen that going from having it to not having it results in a wipe. (or so I am told is the reason I can't offer to sit for a lot of fights)
-Stormlash Totem is around a 1% DPS increase per Shaman you have in the raid which is a really big deal in hard modes
-The 10% stacking health buff is a buff unique to the spec and that can be a pretty big deal on tanks.
-Shaman have probably the best on demand cooldown based burst of any healer. Healing Tide, Ascendance and Spirit Link are all really powerful when used properly. Other healers have things like Guardian, Tranquility, Divine Hymn that can rival these cooldowns, but they generally don't have 3 of them that you can either chain together for ridiculous burst or spread out across different abilities. Burst output is a very big deal on a lot of encounters, and is often the most important part of healing that encounter.

Those are the reasons why you see very high Resto Shaman representation this tier in hard modes and top guilds in spite of what appears to be fairly lackluster total throughput.

As far as throughput, I wouldn't say that we are solely buff bots. Our throughput is pretty weak in 10 mans and isn't that great in 25 mans either, but it's still within 10-15% of every non-Disc healer, so we have competitive output. But yes, Shaman output suffers more from having a lot of absorb healers in the raid and from having too many healers and not enough to heal than any other healer's output does because of the mechanics of our mastery.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/07/2013 09:14 PMPosted by Tiberria
As far as throughput, I wouldn't say that we are solely buff bots. Our throughput is pretty weak in 10 mans and isn't that great in 25 mans either, but it's still within 10-15% of every non-Disc healer, so we have competitive output. But yes, Shaman output suffers more from having a lot of absorb healers in the raid and from having too many healers and not enough to heal than any other healer's output does because of the mechanics of our mastery.


I've never gotten a 400k crit on a Greater Heal, Divine Light, Healing Touch, or anything else. But I've gotten 400k crits on GHW regularly on my Shaman who is barely ilvl 460. I don't think there is anything wrong with your throughput, beyond the mechanical issues with so much of a Shaman's healing being tied to Healing Rain. Though, that is more of a 10 man issue than a 25 man issue.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
Shamans have their strengths and weaknesses, like every other class. But they perfectly viable for everything from dungeons to high end progression.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/07/2013 07:56 PMPosted by Ariandira
so guys i lost my raid spot do to my low heals i would like to invite any shaman to look at my gear and glyphs please someone help me out here


Find a new raid group. People are always looking for a shaman.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
3655
02/07/2013 03:04 PMPosted by Mist
You'd be wrong. Unless you've raided at this level, you have no room to say. :P


For clarification, I meant theorycraftting as the analysis of circumstantial and general factors in order to understand the decision making process of individualized and group players for the purposes of creating generally more favorable predictions, behaviors, and overall outcomes.

In which case you are a liar if you tell me your guild leader/raid leader (you?) doesnt do this. In fact you gave an example of it right here

02/07/2013 03:04 PMPosted by Mist
Top guilds may stack one class for something as simple as one solitary cooldown, like PW:B, or Clemency.


and here

02/07/2013 03:04 PMPosted by Mist
I would prefer that druid be a moonkin so we could have an extra paladin or disc priest


Perhaps you were just thinking of it as doing analysis and crunching numbers. Thats part of theorycrafting sure, but you can theorycraft without delving into numbers.

02/07/2013 03:04 PMPosted by Mist
Literally every class is viable at the bleeding edge level, which means they are MORE than viable at the casual level. The guild still working on normals \ early hardmodes should not be mimicking what they see at the top level. Bring the player, not the class still applies.


Viable and balanced are 2 different things unfortunately. Everything is viable or you could not complete an encounter with said class. I dont think anyone is saying that, just that some specs are more equal than others (bonus points if you get the reference).
Reply Quote
89 Tauren Shaman
8945
TO BAD HEALING SUCKS I'LL SPEC ELEMENTAL AND PULL TOP DPS!!!
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]