Flameglow

90 Troll Mage
14395
From a blue post:
On the topic of the Flameglow talent that is mentioned in this comic, I think there are some misunderstandings on how this new talent functions which I would like to address. First of all, this new talent for mages functions as follows:

Protects you with fiery energy, absorbing [ 20% of Fire Spell Power ] damage from each attack against you (up to a maximum of 30% of the attack).

Too many people are focusing on this talents potential to protect the mage from a maximum of 30% of an attack, where you must realise that under the more dire of circumstances where damage is high, it's protection is quite minimal. With most mages only just breaking 20,500 spell power unbuffed they will only protect themselves for a maximum of 7,000 damage with full procs and buffs, and 5,000 under normal buffed circumstances.

Let's take Ice Barrier which is also in the same tier as Flameglow, for a mage who has 20,000 spell power it will absorb approximately 70,000 damage. For Flameglow to absorb this damage at the same amount of spell power, you would need to take more than 17 hits where each hit does a minimum of 14,000 damage. Another situation you need to consider is that when big burst damage comes in to play.

If you are about to be hit hard, let's say you get hit by a big skill for 70,000 damage. At 20,000 spell power again, your Ice Barrier will absorb all of this, your Flameglow however will only absorb a measly 4000 damage and you will get hit for 66,000.

As you can see, Flameglow is certainly a good talent but it is not an outright winner against either Ice Barrier or even Temporal Shield. They all simply offer different situational uses and styles of gameplay. I would think that Flameglow works best against DoT's or lots of low damage, whereas Ice Barrier would be better against holding up against larger, more bursty damage.


Above is confirmation that it will work on every single tick of dots. Every time you take damage, whether it's channeled, a dot, or multiple hits at the same time, an amount of that damage is absorbed. We can probably assume that the "Absorbed" amount will show up in combat text and combat logs, so healers will love us. In PvE, any fight where Incanter's Ward is good is also probably a good fight for Flameglow. In PvP, it's good against any dot spec or "machine gun" style spec, like rogues.
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100 Orc Shaman
10840
yeah. itll be best against things that do alot of little things.

which... there arent many of.
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100 Gnome Mage
14220
So, as far as PvE is concerned, at least in the 5.0/5.1 raids, the only time we would consider taking it would be for Garalon, and even then it's probably better to have ice barrier or temporal shield for crushes...
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90 Troll Mage
14395
yeah. itll be best against things that do alot of little things.

which... there arent many of.


If you are taking hits or ticks that do less than 66% of the Mage's spellpower, which is approximately 13k damage, it will absorb about 50% more damage on average than Ice Barrier would. Most dots do less than 13k per tick. A lot of white melee hits hit for less than that.

EDIT:
So it will be quite effective against: Affliction Warlocks, Shadow Priests, Balance and Feral Druids, Rogues, maybe DKs.
Also keep in mind that the higher your spell power, the larger the DoT ticks can be in order to be more effective. For example, at 30k spell power, you can get the full mitigation effect on ticks of 20k damage.
Edited by Kurojushi on 2/7/2013 9:11 AM PST
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100 Orc Shaman
10840
02/07/2013 09:02 AMPosted by Kurojushi
So it will be quite effective against: Affliction Warlocks, Shadow Priests, Balance and Feral Druids, Rogues, maybe DKs.


disagreed.

Balance, feral, dks, spriests arent "dot"classes.

theyre damage comes from gigantic big hitting burst.... 150k starsurge crits, ravage! spam, obliterate/frost strike damage and DP+Mindblast+double Mindspike.

Affliction locks i'd possibly use flame glow against. same with rogues. but flameglow still wont do much against 50k eviscerates :-/
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90 Troll Mage
14395
So it will be quite effective against: Affliction Warlocks, Shadow Priests, Balance and Feral Druids, Rogues, maybe DKs.


disagreed.

Balance, feral, dks, spriests arent "dot"classes.

theyre damage comes from gigantic big hitting burst.... 150k starsurge crits, ravage! spam, obliterate/frost strike damage and DP+Mindblast+double Mindspike.

Affliction locks i'd possibly use flame glow against. same with rogues. but flameglow still wont do much against 50k eviscerates :-/


I'm not necessarily saying that they are "dot" classes, I'm saying that Flameglow would easily be at it's most effective when fighting those specs. I agree that it won't help much again huge bursts of damage, but Ice Barrier is only so effective against big bursts, if it is dispelled or broken by something else, you are taking a full unmitigated hit. Flameglow is always on, can't be dispelled, doesn't take a GCD, isn't on sometimes and off at other times, and works on everything, not just dots. I'm not saying it will completely wreck any spec that has a dot, but with classes that have a good deal of their damage output in the form of a dot, we will be mitigating 30% of the damage they deal from those dots, meaning that when we do take damage from the big bursts, our health will be higher, and Flameglow will still absorb a decent chunk of that damage as well, just not 30%.
Edited by Kurojushi on 2/7/2013 9:29 AM PST
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100 Orc Shaman
10840
02/07/2013 09:28 AMPosted by Kurojushi
I agree that it won't help much again huge bursts of damage


thats all those classes are though.

you are absolutely correct, it helps against sustained damage classes, but no class is about sustained damage anymore.

theoretically, yes, it sounds great, in practice i think it will be horribly lacking.
Edited by Jkspiritlink on 2/7/2013 9:38 AM PST
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90 Troll Mage
14395
02/07/2013 09:37 AMPosted by Jkspiritlink
I agree that it won't help much again huge bursts of damage


thats all those classes are though.

you are absolutely correct, it helps against sustained damage classes, but no class is about sustained damage anymore.

theoretically, yes, it sounds great, in practice i think it will be horribly lacking.


Ok, good point. The problem is the game, not the talent. If burst wasn't required to kill someone, then it would be a good option. I do still think that the sustained damage still exists and still helps most classes kill someone. If sustain damage can keep you down below 200k health, then burst is a lot more effective. In an ideal world Flameglow would be worthwhile and flexible, but in a world with too much burst, it is basically a lazy option.
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100 Human Mage
13085
There is too much burst in this game for flameglow to be at all 'better' then ice barrier.
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90 Troll Mage
14395
02/07/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Sythi
There is too much burst in this game for flameglow to be at all 'better' then ice barrier.


Worst case scenario, Flameglow will reduce the damage you take from almost all sustained damage sources by 30%, and reduce the damage you take from most burst damage by 5-10% depending on if it's rapid burst or a few huge hits. It's also off the GCD (which means your DPS goes up, and you don't have to wait until you have a GCD to put it up). It's always on you, meaning if you just so happen to not have IB and you get bursted, it is fulled unmitigated. It's undispellable, which is a direct powerful counter to IB. And because it's a passive, you can devote more attention to other things.

It may not be the obvious choice, and in a lot of cases it is probably not as good in general, but you can't just write it off as being awful. Also, PTR = more changes to come, they could up the spell power coefficient on it to make it more useful in a variety of situations.
Edited by Kurojushi on 2/7/2013 1:00 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
6840
For PvP, Flameglow might work just by virtue of how much damage you're going to take and Flameglow cannot (I assume) be dispelled or stolen in any way.

For PvE, the mitigation is vastly inferior to the other two unless you're mage-tanking. If you're taking 50k damage per second over a sustained period of time (say 25 seconds) with a healer keeping you up, yes, Flameglow wins. Maybe... Then again, Temporal Shield would return 200k back. Assuming your spellpower is 25k, and you were attacked 50 times for ~25k each, that means you got 250k in mitigation. If it was 25 times for ~50k each, you only get 125k and Temporal Shield is better... and Temporal Shield is not on the GCD, either.

You need a lot of DoTs and small attacks (like a rogue hitting you) for Flameglow to be a cost-effective choice. Personally, I think it'll need a buff.
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100 Orc Shaman
10840
02/07/2013 12:58 PMPosted by Kurojushi
Worst case scenario, Flameglow will reduce the damage you take from almost all sustained damage sources by 30%, and reduce the damage you take from most burst damage by 5-10% depending on if it's rapid burst or a few huge hits. It's also off the GCD (which means your DPS goes up, and you don't have to wait until you have a GCD to put it up). It's always on you, meaning if you just so happen to not have IB and you get bursted, it is fulled unmitigated. It's undispellable, which is a direct powerful counter to IB. And because it's a passive, you can devote more attention to other things.


i also think the usefulness of flameglow is lessened by the fact that we'll be taking damage from more than one source. If you play against Spriest/Lock/Healer, flameglow might be a big benefit against the affliction lock, but isnt going to help much against the spriest, whereas ice barrier will help the same amount. idk. it needs to be tested out, but thats just how i see it happening.
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It also can't be dispelled right?

Not to mention it should help with pet classes and dots. They might be small but they add up. Fire also is used to not having a shield so I am interested too see what it will be like.
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100 Orc Mage
17270
I am going to go with Flameglow because it allows me to use a global cooldown for incanter's Ward and I don't have to worry about one for ice barrier. But then again, I will use Ice Barrier for predictable bursty fights. Just like the idea of flameglow's constant passive defense.
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90 Troll Mage
14395
You know, what Jk said made me realize something. IB may absorb 20% of our health with a 100% uptime, leading to a theoretical 20% damage reduction. Comparing that to the "ideal" 30% of Flameglow only works in perfect situations, so that's the decision. However, what if you are getting attacked by multiple targets? In fact, what if you are being attacked over and over again so quickly that Ice Barrier would go away in a matter of seconds?

Ice Barrier absorbs about 80k every 25 seconds, leading to 3.2k hps.
Lets say you are going against Spriest/Lock/Healer, the Spriest has 3 dots and a channel, Affliction Lock has 3 dots and a channel and a pet. Lets say, conservatively, that you are then being hit 3 times per second on average. If every hit does more than 66% of your spellpower, you will absorb about 4000 damage per hit, leading to 12k hps.

So uh... that's a lot more healing overall. Sure it won't save you from getting bursted down, but if you don't have IB up for some reason (purged, on cooldown, burned down by sustained damage), you are better off with Flameglow than with IB. But if you have Flameglow and are getting hit very rapidly, as long as you have a healer to back you up, it provides a HUGE amount of hps compared to IB.
Edited by Kurojushi on 2/7/2013 5:17 PM PST
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100 Orc Shaman
10840
i think id personally still prefer being able to ice barrier when the double mind spike+mindblast is coming at me but who knows.

i can say from a healer, i have almost no problem healing through multiple sets of dots on my team.
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90 Troll Mage
14395
i think id personally still prefer being able to ice barrier when the double mind spike+mindblast is coming at me but who knows.

i can say from a healer, i have almost no problem healing through multiple sets of dots on my team.


Ok, so I do think we both agree that in something like 3s, IB is probably the better choice. Maybe in 5s and in BGs Flameglow will provide a lot more of a long term benefit in the end. In PvE it really just depends on the new fights coming out in 5.2. Any fight that does not have significant burst and has a reasonable amount of sustained damage will favor Flameglow. However I think that in all cases, the spellpower coefficient maybe needs a bit of a buff because it tends to be the case that most boss dots are a lot more than 15k per tick.
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i think id personally still prefer being able to ice barrier when the double mind spike+mindblast is coming at me but who knows.

i can say from a healer, i have almost no problem healing through multiple sets of dots on my team.


Ok, so I do think we both agree that in something like 3s, IB is probably the better choice. Maybe in 5s and in BGs Flameglow will provide a lot more of a long term benefit in the end. In PvE it really just depends on the new fights coming out in 5.2. Any fight that does not have significant burst and has a reasonable amount of sustained damage will favor Flameglow. However I think that in all cases, the spellpower coefficient maybe needs a bit of a buff because it tends to be the case that most boss dots are a lot more than 15k per tick.


The concept is good but mitigates too little.
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90 Troll Mage
14395
02/07/2013 07:05 PMPosted by Blazely
The concept is good but mitigates too little.


Need some real tests on the PTR to confirm this, sounds about right though.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
6840
IB prot: 3.3 x SP + 4580 (I tried it out, the formula seems accurate.)
So for someone with 25k SP, they'll get 87080 protection.
With Flameglow, they'd have to get hit at least 18 times for over 16666 per hit (~300k total damage) to surpass Ice Barrier's protection. In 25 seconds. Not ridiculous, but a bit situational for my tastes. If you're fighting another fire mage for example, the number of hits combined with the number of ticks will add up pretty quickly, but most of those ticks aren't going to be for anywhere near 17000 damage.

1000 gold says this gets buffed by 5.3... I would suggest 30% of SP up to 30% damage reduction, but that could be swinging the pendulum too far. That's probably about the place where I would consider using it instead of the other 2.
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