What are our "best" + "worst" DPS cooldowns?

90 Night Elf Rogue
0
Our CM rogue deity Daxxarri has been cool enough to engage in some back-and-forth on Twitter with our resident I'll-stick-with-Subtlety-until-the-sun-swallows-the-Earth rogue Haileaus and our roguecyclopedia Verelyse. The topics have swung back and forth a bit over the past day, but the latest bit raises a really interesting question:


  • @haileaus: Can you give an example of what you think is a good/bad CD? Imo for rogues Shadow Dance = best, Vendetta = worst.
  • @Daxxarri: An interesting question & I'll think on it, but good/bad is too binary for me. Why those cooldowns as best/worst?


Whatchoo guys think? Which of our cooldowns are actually fun to use, and which feel more like a burden?

Our primary DPS cooldowns (I'm considering anything we have to wait a minute or longer to use again, and that have a direct and clear impact on our damage) are, and correct me please if I'm missing any:

  • Adrenaline Rush (Combat only)
  • Killing Spree (Combat only)
  • Shadow Blades
  • Shadow Dance (Sub only)
  • Vendetta (Mut only)

Which of these do you enjoy using, and why? Which feel like an albatross sitting around your neck, or are just unsatisfying?

Please keep this convo tightly focused: Let's focus *just* on talking about our DPS cooldowns, and why we like or dislike them. I'd also really like to stay away from proposing entirely new cooldowns; I want to get at the reasons why we think our current ones feel interesting for us to use, rather than inventing entirely new ones. The invention can come later, once we better understand what we like/dislike about the ones we've got.

I'll offer my views in a bit. :) Don't want to bias the discussion from the start, and anyway this post is long enough.

When you post, please note whether you're talking about PvP or PvE. Or both! It's important to make that distinction, particularly for a topic like this.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/7/2013 10:03 AM PST
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90 Troll Rogue
20890
PvE Perspective

All cooldowns with respect to combat are bad cooldowns for one very simple reason. There is no optimal use case, its simply use them on CD and don't overlap KS and AR+SB. The T15 4 set may make things a bit more interesting however that is really a bandaid on top of the larger issue of RB. I've been saying for a long time RB is a problem for combat, it saps the rotation of potentially interesting decisions.

Dance is pretty good because it palpably changes the rotation however it somewhat suffers because of its short CD. Its hard to hold a 1 minute CD because you could easily lose a usage over a long encounter even if you hold it for a short period of time each use.

Shadow Blades I like a lot because again it palpably changes the rotation and it has a long enough cd (as !combat) such that you can shift it around for optimization purposes. It also feels powerful, or it would if it had a better visual.

Vendetta is terrible. It doesn't change anything.

Ordering best to worst:
1) SB (!combat)
2) Dance
3) Combat CDs
4) Vendetta
Edited by Fierydemise on 2/7/2013 10:07 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
9465
IMO all of our CDs have their ups and downs. This is from a PVE perspective.

Being assassination spec when I use Vendetta I need to make sure I can keep the most uptime on the boss while the CD is active. If there is a hard switch for adds or any sort of CC (fear or stun) it makes the CD useless for the duration of the time I am CCd. If i get 100% uptime it is a great DPS CD. If i get little uptime it becomes next to useless.

AR is a great CD as it gives a great deal of burst DPS. Paired with SB it gives us a great way to help reduce our other CDs such as Killing Spree. Pairing AR with cleaving is also a great dps increase on fights like stone guard where you can hit 2 targets (could be better with the changes that are upcoming against multiple mobs). Killing Spree is a decent CD for helping pool energy while doing some good DPS and not just pooling energy while doing white damage. Timing is everything with KS getting the insight right and making sure you can use AR while it is on CD to reduce the CD time.

Dance is another decent CD for me but it requires strict positioning against the target for ambush spam. If you have to move (away from behind) or hard switch, again it makes the ability next to useless. I am not too experienced with Sub PVE, so I may be missing some points here.

Shadow Blades is the number 1 dps CD that we have out right now IMO. It can be used by all specs and paired with all spec's specific DPS CDs for some great output. Everything is situational IMO. Sometimes CDs can be used and pump put amazing numbers. Other times the same CDs can boost your numbers very little. It is all about when you use them and using them with max uptime.

Again this is just my opinion. If I had to list the CDs in order from best to least it would be as follows:

Shadow Blades
AR
KS
Vendetta
Shadow Dance
Edited by Hebhes on 2/7/2013 10:19 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
I'm trying to find my shadow blades rant.

But I can't remember if it was twitter, facebook, forums, or a comment on Rfeann's blog. >_<

TO MUCH SOCIAL MEDIA.
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90 Undead Rogue
4445
Shadow Dance has been and possibly remains the best damage CD in the entire game imo.

It's also the only thing Sub has left. Please don't nerf it. I feel like this conversation only leads to Dance nerf and me having to play mut, which I abhor.
Edited by Crookston on 2/7/2013 10:04 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
0
I forgot to note (and just added to the OP; thanks for the consult, Hail) that I'm eager to trade thoughts on both the PvE and PvP side of the coin. So please be sure to note when you're posting whether you're talking about PvE, PvP or both.

02/07/2013 10:03 AMPosted by Crookston
I feel like this conversation only leads to Dance nerf and me having to play mut, which I abhor.

Why would you be worried about that? I'm not so much asking about whether a CD is powerful or weak (though that's definitely part of what makes us like/dislike it), but more about whether we find the CD fun or not. As much as some of us like to claim it, Blizz isn't out to nerf fun. :)
Edited by Rfeann on 2/7/2013 10:11 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
4445
Because Blizzard has a nasty habit of nerfing one ability to make another more popular.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
0
I found it. It was facebook.

            An example of what I'd consider a major failure here would be shadow blades.

            That's quintessential mechanics-driven design with little or no thought to aesthetics. They had to do something, so they invented an ability that'd do good DPS without ramifications and broke for lunch.

It was from a discussion on the MDA paper on game design by Robin Hunicke, Marc LeBlanc, Robert Zubek, referenced on Extra Credits ( http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf ).

Video:

http://extra-credits.net/episodes/aesthetics-of-play/

Shadow Blades fits pretty well with assassination, but for combat it's just a buff to adrenaline rush and its synergy with subtlety's rotation seems haphazard and irritating at best (without having tried it).

Subtlety has one of the most finely sculpted rotations in the game for PvE that I'm aware of, but suddenly Shadow Blades showed up and Blizzard was like HEY FIND A PLACE FOR THIS HOMELESS GUY.

Something else is that Shadow Blades is so passive its ridiculous. It increases auto-attack damage, and gives you more combo points (which you don't even have to plan around thanks to Anticipation).

Every other CD we have allows for SOME kind of optimization.

But not Shadow Blades.

Anyway,

Shadowdance would get my vote as the best just because optimizing it for heroic Spine was so much fun.

So the list would be:

1) Shadowdance (fantastic aesthetic, complexity, and depth).
2) Adrenaline Rush (I like attacking things -really- fast, nice aesthetic).
3) Killing Spree (rather iconic, sets itself apart aesthetically).
4) Vendetta (a bit binary, but requires thought and fits the assassin archetype).
5) Shadow Blades (roflmaoheysomeonebroughtpretzelskthxbai).

Edit:

I also think that allowing Redirect to transfer the Vendetta debuff would be a great QoL/utility bonus to both abilities, improve the complexity of assassination's rotation, and make Vendetta slightly less boring.

/nudgenudge
Edited by Verelyse on 2/7/2013 10:34 AM PST
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90 Troll Rogue
20890
Shadow blades works pretty well for sub because sub has hard hitting finishers so heavy finisher spam with SB up feels powerful.

SB allows optimization in timing, as a 3 minute CD I can hold it without wasting it in many cases, by contrast I can very rarely hold dance without worrying about losing a usage. Dance has to be that way because FW is the primary pseudo-resource of sub but during the sub redesign I'd love to see dance go on a longer CD and provide sub other methods to get FW, opener charges or something like that.
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90 Human Rogue
14300
PVP Side

- Combat: AR and SB provides a good CP management so you can do 8s KS's and some Eviscerates, but I'd still say the main damage with this one comes from Killing Spree

- Sub: Best, by far, "offensive" CD, it can go under the "burst-style" or even the "assist-style", I'd say it's the most advantageous one

- Assassination: Lacks on energy, but still does a pretty decent damage with Vendetta and the AGI trinket, but as I said, too low energy regen, even with the Venomous Wounds procs

PVE Side

- Combat: This one turns the table, AR and SB will be the "main damage" CD, while Killing Spree will mostly depend on this one ( to lower its CD ), it's a good setup, thou

- Sub: I've trained PVE sub a little, don't know if it was my assassination gear that messed up, but I managed to do a pretty decent DPS ( still lower than assassination, thou ), I think it can out-DPS assassination ( not too much ) if it's done right, I still gotta get used to it, it's not that easy to manage the Shadow Dance when you almost always have to use it on CD to improve DPS

- Assassination: Best single-target PVE Spec at the moment, atleast that's what I think, easy rotation and very high damage on poison ticks, screw Vendetta, even without it you can still do an amazing DPS, but of course, Vendetta helps when you have some trinket proc'ed, still don't think 25% ( glyphed ) is something that nice ( if you think about it, glyphed Vendetta is 6,25% overall DPS gain )

Something on the PVP side must be "changed", like a higher chance of proc'ing that free-energy-cost-and-health-requirement Dispatch when Vendetta is up, or new poisons ONLY for assassination, something like that
Edited by Ongbak on 2/7/2013 10:38 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
9465
02/07/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Fierydemise
Shadow blades works pretty well for sub because sub has hard hitting finishers so heavy finisher spam with SB up feels powerful.


Shadow Blades
Autoattacks deal pure Shadow damage.
Combo-point-generating attacks generate 1 additional combo point.
12 seconds remaining

I don't think that shadow blades will effect your finishers at all. If it does then it is not worded properly in the tool tip.
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90 Human Rogue
14300
The hard hitting part he meant was for the Find Weakness finishers, plus auto-attacks ignoring armor ( pure shadow damage ) and extra CPs, which means more Find Weakness finishers
Edited by Ongbak on 2/7/2013 10:56 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
4445
I believe he is referring to the faster pointer generation leading to more finishers, not harder hitting finishers.
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02/07/2013 10:20 AMPosted by Verelyse
Shadow Blades showed up and Blizzard was like HEY FIND A PLACE FOR THIS HOMELESS GUY.


lol and yes thats about how it plays as Sub.
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90 Troll Rogue
13995
Vendetta is a bit boring but it's not like there aren't plenty of damage cooldowns like it. Dark Soul, Recklessness, etc. I can't stand Shadow Dance, never could. It's clunky and awkward and any cooldown that requires a different ability bar but only gives you six to eight seconds to practice with it and develop muscle-memory for it at a time is inherently bad design. I haven't played Combat in a long time and my major beef with KS may no longer apply but as I recall it was a cooldown that, however briefly, removed your control of your character and I did not appreciate that.
Edited by Scryll on 2/7/2013 1:26 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
9465
Vendetta is a bit boring but it's not like there aren't plenty of damage cooldowns like it. Dark Soul, Recklessness, etc. I can't stand Shadow Dance, never could. It's clunky and awkward and any cooldown that requires a different ability bar but only gives you six to eight seconds to practice with it and develop muscle-memory for it at a time is inherently bad design.


My problem with Shadow Dance, from a PVE perspective, is the positioning requirements. You have to make sure that you have time to stay on target for the entire duration as well as be behind the boss for ample ambush spam.

Yes it is a big DPS boost and capable of pumping out some nice numbers, but it requires near perfect timing to use it to its full potential.

I am not saying its hard to get behind a mob or a boss. It's being able to stay behind the mob or boss without having to run around that makes it tricky IMO.
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90 Orc Rogue
15170
From a PvE perspective, one of the major reasons I enjoy Combat is because of it's cooldowns.
It's the only tree of the three which has cooldowns that do anything out of the ordinary, and when you use them, you see a huge damage difference as well as a difference in what buttons you're hitting, etc.

Shadowdance is cool, but it's simply letting you use Stealth abilities.

Vendetta is pretty lame, and is just a generic flat damage increase.

Shadow Blades is so-so. The double combo points are nice, but adding more passive damage to an already passive damage heavy class isn't terribly exciting as far as a Cooldown is concerned.
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10 Goblin Rogue
4875
PVP Mut perspective: Vendetta is boring but it works. The extra effect on it is quite useless since 1 of the three classes (wait, hunters too, right?) it affects can just remove it with Vanish.

On the other side, Adrenaline Rush is a great cooldown. Instead of just increasing damage, it does it noticeably. By that I mean more than just bigger numbers, you feel like you just shotgun'd a 5-hr energy poured into a quad-shot latte.

Shadow Dance lost a lot of its killing power when Rogues lost Puncturing Wounds. Still powerful but not much more than a Subterfuge x2.

Shadow Blades is just another cooldown to manage. PORQUE?!?!?!?!?!?! Blizzard promised Rogues that we'd be less cooldown dependant in Cata. How many more cooldowns do we have now?
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90 Undead Rogue
8650
I LOVE AR+SB.
The rush it causes in attempting to dump your suddenly overflowing energy and cp while trying desperately not to accidentally hit the wrong keybind is so damn exhilarating.

I also love Spree.
It's a high dmg ability that is disorienting and unpredictable. But despite it's disorienting nature it is the least attention-intensive moment in the Combat playstyle. It gives you a couple seconds as Combat to catch your breath and regroup before you're plunged back into the chaotic spamming of buttons.
The 5.2 BF change will make it a bit harder to use in PvP, I think... but that's another topic.

I dislike Shadow Dance but that's mostly because I'm terrible at using it, my reaction times, and frequent latency prevent me from being able to use it's cc capability to its fullest.

Vendetta I liked when I first heard of it... but never again. It's a flat dmg increase that forces the tunnel-vision spec to have more intense tunnel-vision.
Edited by Kiljagen on 2/7/2013 5:24 PM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
Ugh, couldn't log on for a while, so finally get to comment now. Gonna make this post replies then do my own feelings afterwords.

02/07/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Hebhes
Yes it is a big DPS boost and capable of pumping out some nice numbers, but it requires near perfect timing to use it to its full potential.

Personally this is what I like most about ShD and wish other CDs were more like it in the thinking about when to use it department. What raid encounters have you had issues with the positioning?

02/07/2013 10:56 AMPosted by Ongbak
The hard hitting part he meant was for the Find Weakness finishers, plus auto-attacks ignoring armor ( pure shadow damage ) and extra CPs, which means more Find Weakness finishers

I'd like to clarify that it is not suggested to overlap SB with FW since the autattack part of SB is largely done by FW anyway.

02/07/2013 04:31 PMPosted by Troelvah
Blizzard promised Rogues that we'd be less cooldown dependant in Cata. How many more cooldowns do we have now?

Well we have Combat Readiness and Preparation for all specs...then there's Shadow Blades, Smoke Bomb, and Vendetta. Though to be fair I think everyone would agree that Vendetta is better than the old Hunger for Blood. Like seriously, seriously better.

So many opinions! It's hard for me not to quote all the ones I disagree with and say "YOU'RE ALL WRONG!"
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