Topic 10 N Empress Add Phase Suggestions
So we had our first amber shaper kill last night (amazing what happens when you actually interrupt the monstrosity and yourselves) and while we did fine in the first phase and even the burn phase when we made it there (once) but we're having serious issues keeping our tanks up when those adds come out, and I'm not sure if it's a healing thing or a tanking thing. Or both. It's probably both.
DK and Druid tank
Holy Paladin, Disc Priest, Resto Shaman Healers.
No hunter for misdirect.
Our strategy is to get the two reavers on our dk tank and the six windblades on our bear. We're a little sketchy on getting that set up but it does seem to work well enough but the bear's health yo-yos back and forth so much it's scary.
I know our bear has issues and those are being addressed, but I'm not sure if addressing those issues will be sufficient to get us to reliably deal with phase 2. The good news is even with 3 healers we have sufficient dps to push phase 3 before getting a second phase 2.
For last night I had my beacon and the disc priest healing our dk tank and myself and the resto shaman focusing on the bear.
Here are some logs from last night. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/vl212f9o7ahx5ntc/?s=10979&e=11198
Edited by Tiriél on 2/8/13 1:06 PM (PST)
So...I looked at your longest attempt (the 7 minute one) and your Bear cast Savage Defense exactly three times. He cast Barkskin a grand total of 3 times, and Survival Instincts twice. He (correctly) symbiosis'd your DK and used Bone Shield a grand total of 3 times, but was apparently spamming Frenzied Regeneration for reasons I don't really understand.
In short, your Bear Tank is horrible.
Edited by Taymage on 2/8/13 1:16 PM (PST)
This is your problem. You *cannot* do this, and no matter how many healers you have on the bear, and no matter how many cooldowns he pops, he will die.
The windblades have an ability called Band of Valor (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=125422)
"Damage dealt increased by 30% for ally within 8 yards"
If one tank has all six windblades they will be doing stupid, stupid damage.
You have to essentially split the raid into 2 five mans, have each tank take 3 windblades and one reaver, and have the dps mark / quickly kill one windblade on each side.
He appears to have survived that, actually. All "six" may be on him, but at least two will be out trying to kill some random goober, and you can normally burn down two more (just for safety) within the first 10ish seconds. You can also repeatedly stun the mobs to keep them from damaging the tank until you reduce their number.
Edited by Taymage on 2/8/13 1:25 PM (PST)
As long as you don't AoE stun them so that they reset their swing timers and all start hitting the tank at the same time.
Regarding the other issue, they don't fixate for a bit, so there will be 6 on him all at once at least for a bit. And even after, he would still have 4 on him until one died. It is totally unnecessary. There likely would be more personal and healing cooldowns available if they do it this way. Additionally, if the group is split, once fixate goes out, he may well end up with two or only 1 on him when the dps kill an add on each side.
I haven't looked at the log, but one other thing: they need to try and make sure they have only 1 add phase. There is no reason to have two. Your goal is to have her below 65% before the first retreat, and if it looks like you might not quite make it to 30% (when phase III starts) before her next retreat, hit bloodlust a little early and use part of it to push your group into phase III.
We AOE stun the adds and haven't had a problem, but we also roll CDs on the tank. Here's what the log looks like (I had to remove individual hits from the Set'thik Windblades because it was too many characters):
[21:59:05.892] ßabel casts Savage Defense
[21:59:46.424] ßabel casts Bone Shield
[21:59:48.757] ßabel casts Barkskin
[22:00:02.532] ßabel casts Savage Defense
[22:00:34.483] Tynge casts Might of Ursoc <=== Set'thik Windblades come out here.
[22:00:45.632] ßabel casts Savage Defense
[22:01:18.434] ßabel casts Survival Instincts
[22:01:19.056] ßabel casts Might of Ursoc
[22:02:08.881] ßabel casts Barkskin
[22:02:09.651] ßabel casts Bone Shield
[22:02:21.385] Havocc killed Set'thik Windblade <== First Set'thik Windblade dies.
[22:02:21.795] Set'thik Windblade dies
[22:02:27.847] Set'thik Windblade dies
[22:02:38.654] Set'thik Windblade dies
[22:02:42.348] Parmling killed Set'thik Windblade
[22:02:42.747] Set'thik Windblade dies
[22:02:49.972] Set'thik Windblade dies
[22:03:29.215] Clyne killed Set'thik Windblade
[22:03:29.450] Set'thik Windblade dies
[22:03:47.803] ßabel casts Barkskin
[22:04:45.425] ßabel casts Survival Instincts
[22:05:25.916] ßabel casts Bone Shield
[22:06:00.447] ßabel casts Might of Ursoc
[22:06:23.467] ßabel dies
So, essentially he spends 30-40 seconds face tanking the Set'thik Windblades without a single use of Savage Defense or any other CD of his own.
@ Tiriel: Yeah, I know our bear has issues. I suppose the point of this post is to answer the question: "Will fixing our bear's issues get us a kill or do we need to fundamentally change something else?"
@ Taymage: Yeah, it can be done this way. We did it twice, and it's one of the two ways of doing it I found (the other being your suggestion of just leaving the groups as is). But when we tried that both our tanks got hammered. I'm unsure if the problem was we were just unprepared for the damage (Icy Veins says: "Oh that buff isn't a big deal", yeah, right, sure it isn't. :P) or if we got our two tanks too close together such that they were giving the buff to all six mobs.
While we're on the subject of that buff, I'm a little confused as to how it acts. WoL says "Damage dealt increased by 30% for ally within 8 yards" and "Damage increased by 5%". So what does that actually mean? Each windblade gets a 35% damage bonus? A 30% bonus + 5% for every extra windblade beyond the first? 35% per windblade?
In terms of our dps we're fine. She's down to around 60% after the first phase, and both times we survived phase 2 she was at 30% before the second 1st phase ended.
It also took a very long time to kill a single windblade. I looked at the log and didn't see any obvious (non cleave) AoEing by the dps other than a flamestrike or two by the mage (which is a total waste of time by the way), so I'm not sure what the issue is.
Honestly, that is a deadly combination: six of those things up for a while, and poor cooldown use. Both should be changed, imo.
Edited by Taymage on 2/8/13 2:02 PM (PST)
Sellys, try splitting the groups again, and see if you can get your DK tank to pop army right before they adds come out, that is a nice trick our DK tank uses to help keep a couple of the hits off of him while we are killing the first add.
It's too bad you don't have a hunter; I think stampede works the same way, so you could have a little trick on each side.
But however you do this, Tiriel is right - make sure you coordinate both tanking and healing cooldowns for those tanks that have the windblades. Obviously, the more that die and/or are running around fixated, the less you have to worry about the tanks.
Your tank ultimately died to getting no healing for at least 6 seconds with Empress whaling on his face. Granted, he didn't really use any active mitigation during that period, but I'm unsure of why his last heal was a PoH from the Priest.
There's only 1 dispel on the log for that attempt. One. You can dispel Visions of Demise. In fact, it should be dispelled immediately. Your Priest can Fear Ward himself to prevent the Debuff from going on him, and I believe Rogues can cloak it off. It can also, unless I am mistaken, be iceblocked off. I'm also seeing deaths from Cry of Terror, which makes no sense to me when you have three healers, and at least one person died to the purple cone that the boss puts down that is very easy to see and you just have to move out of.
Your Disc Priest appears to be having trouble using his Spirit Shell. I see at least one or two instances of it simply falling off unused. He needs to wait until the lowest Dissonance Field is at ~13-14% health left, and then start casting Spirit Shell. If you time it correctly, it can fully (or close to fully) absorb one Sonic Discharge and have some left over for the second one. Timed correctly, you can guarantee having one every other Sonic Discharge, which should cut down on deaths. Your Priest also appears to only be casting one cast of Spirit Shell on each party at points? It's very odd looking. His activity is significantly lower than the other two healers, for all that he's topping the meters. I'm wondering what he's doing when he's doing nothing, since there's no point in that fight except MAYBE a few seconds during the phase transitions where he'd have nothing to do.
Your Shaman only cast Healing Tide Totem once in a 7 and a half minute fight, and he's using it when there's a Spirit Shell up on the raid. He uses Healing Stream Totem about half as much as it should be (9 times over the course of the fight, when it's on a 30 sec CD). He only casts Healing Rain 5 times the entire fight.
So no, your Bear tank isn't your only problem, but he is a big problem.
Edited by Methuzla on 2/8/13 5:40 PM (PST)
I would suggest leaving the groups as-is (i.e. don't split them up into 2 reavers and 6 windblades). Have your DK take the left side and your bear take the right side adds as they emerge or vice verse.
If your Disc priest has ss up, have him/her pop that and build up some nice shields on both tanks allowing some significant breathing room for the spike damage. I would have all dps focus down 1 side first; have your pally and shaman focus the tank that will have the adds on him/her the longest and have the disc focus the other tank (the pally will I'm sure beacon one of the tanks which will increase healing even more). In addition to SS, the Disc can Pain Suppress and use barrier - which your Disc never used during either phase - as a nice tank CD, along with all of the cd's each respective tank can bring.
In addition any class that can stun or incapacitate any of the adds beating on the tank can do so. I have a frost DK in my raid that can do a nice aoe ice trap that works wonders, you may have similar abilities in your comp to take advantage of.
By the time dps has finished those adds, all three healers can focus on the lone tank that is taking damage while dps starts to hammer on those windblades on that tank.
My group only amber traps 1 of the reavers, we just transition the boss right after we get the trap out and take out the last adds. Cleaving down the reaver with the boss during the second phase 1 isn't a problem.
As an aside I noticed your priest doesn't use offensive penance, during each phase 1, that would be my preferred method of stacking evangelism aside from holy fire and smite. It will smart heal the lowest party members with three ticks and is a pseudo aoe heal. I understand stacking grace during phase 2 on the tanks is more beneficial and the damage pattern is mostly of the tank variety, during phase 1 that is not the case.
He/she can also use archangel and inner focus much more. Usage of both of those spells could greatly increase throughput.
Our Resto Druid really likes this fight. Except where he gets instant threat during Retreat. xD
Well that is mostly an issue. I get instant threat a large majority of the time, and if I do not our enhance shammy gets it and that just is ...not good...tree form and instant regrowth spam just to save my life...at a cost of anywhere in the neighborhood of 40%ish my mana before tank gets manageable threat.
I don't know if perhaps the tanks need to retreat faster or be more aware of add spawns faster. But that transition is crushing my group.
Our Paladin HoPs or Salves our Druid.
Yeah...our other healer (was pally) left month ago and we're still trying to replace and have been pugging heals since. Havn't had a pally.
Edited by Kaels on 2/9/13 5:33 AM (PST)
I really can't think of any good reason at all to do this. Why would you do that to your poor bear? "Issues" or not, you're asking him to soak 280% damage from six mobs that don't exactly hit like pillows to start with.
What we do is we have the disc priest load up both tanks with capped Spirit Shell for the transition. (We actually skip SS on the second round of dissonance fields in p1 to save it for this.) Each tank picks up one side of the room. We then have a pet tank one of the windblades away from the group on one side, pop Stampede on that side and I think Army goes out on the other side, and load the tanks up with all of their cooldowns in descending order of potency plus overlapping healer CDs (including Barrier as a tank CD) while the DPS focus down one marked windblade on each side.
Once you've got one windblade down on each side, it's pretty smooth sailing.