4th spec for lock and shammy

90 Night Elf Druid
6280
Yes, shaman should get a fourth spec for tanking, since they can already use shields, and make it earth based.

Warlocks don't need anything else ever. They are a pure dps class with 3 unique and fun specs. Hunters, Rogues and Mages weep.

I WOULD like to see survival hunters go back to being a melee spec...for funsies but I'll never get my way.
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90 Human Paladin
5780
Shaman used to be able to off tank. I think they should be able to tank again. Make earth biting or whatever it's called increase health, decrease damage(to avoid every enhance using it in in pvp and cuz tanks don't need crazy damage) improve threat and reduce damage by a % so it ends up being something like blood presence without making it a given against melee in pvp. :D
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14590
Its just like people wanting to DW tank as blood..... Yea the idea is nice, BUT can you honestly say with all the issues they currently have balancing 5 tanking specs this would be a good idea? Someone would end up like blood in T12H were they were being benched and then they get buffed to be viable leading to all the QQ over the next tier playing to their strengths.

The idea of being able to tank is nice, up until you get nerfed and then have to struggle to do what other tanks can do with minimal effort, and then the balancing nightmare begins.
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90 Human Mage
17750
See, I don't get this. Warlocks have abilities in their trees now that resemble tank abilities. So do shamans. The other classes that are poking fun at this idea like it is that far fetched don't. Making a dark apotheosis spec for a warlock would require almost nothing to do, except an uncrittable effect in nether plating, or demon skin, something that is intuitively already there. Shamans have a shield, a weapon enchantment that provides extra threat, and well, as far as I'm concerned, there are traditionally 4 elements, and with water represented by resto, fire being represented by elemental, and enhancement being represented by air, what about earth?

What would be totally non intuitive about Thing, or a badass demon tanking?? Nothing, that's what. The very idea that any of you believe it can't be done, monks are tanks, what the hell is up with that??? I would much rather be hiding behind a huge golem-looking stone giant or a nasty demon than I would some drunk panda. Gimme a break....
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90 Human Mage
17750
02/08/2013 02:26 PMPosted by Krícys
Yo what about warrior healers. I scream at people to boost morale.


Yeah, but last I checked, screaming at people never really heals them...
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90 Human Mage
17750
02/08/2013 05:27 PMPosted by Hazeonix
I don't want to tank. I don't want to be pushed into tanking on fights where we're decidedly strong to. I like the specs the way they are, if you don't, roll another class.


Beautiful thing about 4th spec... your current spec is completely left alone, and gives you the option to tank, if that's what you want to do, or stay what you are if you don't. This isn't anyone suggesting, as was done to death knights at the beginning of cataclysm, to take one or the other. Remember, once upon a time, DK's were capable of tanking or dps'ing in any spec. My DK was a blood tank and a blood dps throughout wrath, and I thought that change sucked, but that isn't what is being offered up here, so you really don't have any solid ground on which to tell other to like what is there, or reroll something else.

I will always be a proponent of expeanding this game, not restricting it. The only bound set is "Is it an intuitive gaming change?" Rogues healing, for example, is not an intuitive game change. They have never had even a single ability to could be turned into a healing ability outside of a self healing ability (one that shouldn't exist in the first place). Same with warriors.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9410
02/08/2013 08:08 PMPosted by Nexian
I WOULD like to see survival hunters go back to being a melee spec

Sorry but seeing this always sets me off, survival has never(even back in the lacerate days) been a melee hunter spec. Back in vanilla and BC it was primarily a debuffing spec used to increase damage of other agility based classes while sacrificing it's own DPS potential. Most(cause class composition was sooooo messed up back then) raids would run 1 surv hunter if they had alot of rogues/hunters just like most raids would run 1 ret pally to refresh wisdom on bosses even though they were on the lower ends of the spectrum. That is if you had room after stacking a minimum of 5 shaman per raid =/
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Either Warlock needs an actual tanking spec or they need to stop introducing a bunch of tanking elements to Demo. Warlock has every tool of a regular tank except crit immunity, for absolutely no reason.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10620
02/08/2013 07:27 PMPosted by Warping
Mages - I honestly can't think of mage spec that isn't already utilized, except the BElf Spell Breakers, which would be interesting.


Mages could use time altering abilities to heal people.
Now that would be interesting.

To incite some mages, you could actually tank some of the Wrath heroics as Frost spec running Molten Armor because of it's crit reduction.

Mages did tank in BC.
You could tank quite a few bosses, with only a few having a mage tank better than a warlock tank.


No i mean, actually tank. None of the spellsteal nonsense that I had to do with my guild.
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90 Human Mage
17750
02/10/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Mahourai
Either Warlock needs an actual tanking spec or they need to stop introducing a bunch of tanking elements to Demo. Warlock has every tool of a regular tank except crit immunity, for absolutely no reason.


This is a fair statement. I've actually tested out dark apotheosis tanking recently on my warlock and it seems to be an excellent tank. Sacing a voidwalker with soul link puts us healthwise above some tanks and he has many of the same CDs as any other tank, some of them almost identically worded tool tips from other tanks. This whole "oh 5h!t" tanking idea is dumb. Either go all the way with it or get rid of it entirely. The halfassery should stop.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Yeah if you need an emergency tank in 5-mans, that role can now be filled by anyone with aggro.

I think the Warlock development team probably wanted to introduce a tank spec in MoP but was stopped just short by restrictions on how far out of the box they could go. It's like if Unholy DK suddenly received an aoe ground effect heal, a fast heal, a big heal, an efficient heal, PoH, tranquility and ironbark but the design intent was still for them to not be healers.
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90 Human Mage
17750
02/08/2013 05:39 PMPosted by Aedilhild
The eternal problem of officially inducting specs into the tank role is that yesterday's wishes will become today's expectations and tomorrow's demands. And Blizzard learned its lesson with death knights very, very well.


Well, it would seem you wanted to impart some sort of insight to the topic but fell short. Exactly what lesson do you believe blizzard learned from death knights? It wasn't like a death knight was a dps but then caved to allowing a tanking spec. They have always been able to tank.

I still still stand behind my claim that I would rather have a dark warrior, a stone skinned giant, a nasty pit fiend or a large grizzly bear between me and something powerful than I would a drunken care bear. If monk tanks could be made viable off the dev team then shammies and warlocks should definitely be able to tank.
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90 Human Mage
17750
Yes, shaman should get a fourth spec for tanking, since they can already use shields, and make it earth based.

Warlocks don't need anything else ever. They are a pure dps class with 3 unique and fun specs. Hunters, Rogues and Mages weep.

I WOULD like to see survival hunters go back to being a melee spec...for funsies but I'll never get my way.


Ok so you make no case for why a warlock should never be anything but a dps, this despite the fact that the only thing missing from a warlock to separate them from a tank is the uncrittable ability. We have tank cds passive and active mitigation for physical and magic damage, as much health as a typical tank and as much armor as an equally geared blood dk, but yet warlocks don't ever need to be anything else ever again.... give your head a shake....
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Well, it would seem you wanted to impart some sort of insight to the topic but fell short. Exactly what lesson do you believe blizzard learned from death knights? It wasn't like a death knight was a dps but then caved to allowing a tanking spec. They have always been able to tank.

I still still stand behind my claim that I would rather have a dark warrior, a stone skinned giant, a nasty pit fiend or a large grizzly bear between me and something powerful than I would a drunken care bear. If monk tanks could be made viable off the dev team then shammies and warlocks should definitely be able to tank.


I don't agree with his comment, but a more salient point is that introducing new tanking classes and specs does not improve tanking participation. The introduction of Death Knights, and later Monks, did not improve tank numbers. Therefore there is very little incentive to add a tanking spec to Warlock as there does not appear to be any indication this would result in something like improved tank participation.
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90 Troll Hunter
14735
Well, it would seem you wanted to impart some sort of insight to the topic but fell short. Exactly what lesson do you believe blizzard learned from death knights? It wasn't like a death knight was a dps but then caved to allowing a tanking spec. They have always been able to tank.

I still still stand behind my claim that I would rather have a dark warrior, a stone skinned giant, a nasty pit fiend or a large grizzly bear between me and something powerful than I would a drunken care bear. If monk tanks could be made viable off the dev team then shammies and warlocks should definitely be able to tank.


I don't agree with his comment, but a more salient point is that introducing new tanking classes and specs does not improve tanking participation. The introduction of Death Knights, and later Monks, did not improve tank numbers. Therefore there is very little incentive to add a tanking spec to Warlock as there does not appear to be any indication this would result in something like improved tank participation.


The difference between adding a whole new class that has tank capabilities, and to take a currently existing class who only has DPS specs, and giving them a tank spec, is that actually has a likely chance of removing DPS from the pool, and adding tank.

Now, those tanks may not even bother with LFR/LFD, but players would be more likely to try a new spec on their current class, rather than swapping roles and class all together.
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86 Tauren Paladin
8840
You have your choice of not one, not two, not 3, not 4, but FIVE classes that can tank. If you really want to be able to tank, I think there are plenty of options to do so already in game that you can take advantage of without complicating game design, cluttering loot tables, or taking away resources fromt he dev teams that could spend them on other things they are currently working on

Shaman used to be able to off tank. I think they should be able to tank again. Make earth biting or whatever it's called increase health, decrease damage(to avoid every enhance using it in in pvp and cuz tanks don't need crazy damage) improve threat and reduce damage by a % so it ends up being something like blood presence without making it a given against melee in pvp. :D


Priests could off tank in vanilla about as well as shamans could, that doesn't mean that they need to now, nor that shamans need to

Well, it would seem you wanted to impart some sort of insight to the topic but fell short. Exactly what lesson do you believe blizzard learned from death knights? It wasn't like a death knight was a dps but then caved to allowing a tanking spec. They have always been able to tank.

I still still stand behind my claim that I would rather have a dark warrior, a stone skinned giant, a nasty pit fiend or a large grizzly bear between me and something powerful than I would a drunken care bear. If monk tanks could be made viable off the dev team then shammies and warlocks should definitely be able to tank.


Yeah, it's not like Brewmasters had any kind of abilities that would have indicated they would be tanking before or anything (drunken brawler?).
Edited by Yongsa on 2/10/2013 11:48 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
9545
Why is it that the people FOR these additions to the game have good examples and informative opinions on the matter, yet the people against almost always just have selfish excuses to prevent others from enjoying the game just a bit more?

-Roll a tank spec if you want to tank? Really? Has this ever been a good argument?
-Adding more tank specs won't help the shortage of tanks? Really? Because everyone who's for Shaman/Warlock tank specs would most likely USE them.
-You don't want a tank spec for you class because there's a small chance that you'll be forced to gear up and tank? Really? So you just do whatever someone tells you to?

You're all so afraid of adding positive changes to the game that it's staggering... Seriously, I haven't seen a single good argument explaining how these changes would be a bad thing. Only selfish remarks to prevent others enjoyment.

But what did I expect, this games community isn't regarded as one of the worst for nothing.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
-Roll a tank spec if you want to tank? Really? Has this ever been a good argument?
-Adding more tank specs won't help the shortage of tanks? Really? Because everyone who's for Shaman/Warlock tank specs would most likely USE them.
-You don't want a tank spec for you class because there's a small chance that you'll be forced to gear up and tank? Really? So you just do whatever someone tells you to?

1. Yes, if you want to tank, everyone should be in a tanking specc. To make it COD terms, why are you sniping with a Pistol?
2. Shaman tanks ~ the only viable opportunity. Warlocks: No (* noted at the bottom).
3. Never the case. Some people do it for the benefit of the group. Other reasons exist.

* Warlocks don't need a tanking specc. That glyph is just a glyph, not an entirely new set of spells (like Bear Form and Cat Form). It literally does not add anything to the warlock class to have a 4th specc.

Shaman would be the only "4th specc" option, but they moved away from Shaman tanks during early Vanilla. It honestly doesn't feel like it will work simply because you'd need to design a new playstyle. Redesigning the entire class around specific Elemental pacts would be the most sensible (Water:Resto ~ Fire:Ele ~ Wind:Enhanc ~ Earth:Tank). Again, that'll take a whole redesign of the class.
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90 Human Mage
17750
[quote]
1. Yes, if you want to tank, everyone should be in a tanking specc. To make it COD terms, why are you sniping with a Pistol?
2. Shaman tanks ~ the only viable opportunity. Warlocks: No (* noted at the bottom).
3. Never the case. Some people do it for the benefit of the group. Other reasons exist.

* Warlocks don't need a tanking specc. That glyph is just a glyph, not an entirely new set of spells (like Bear Form and Cat Form). It literally does not add anything to the warlock class to have a 4th specc.


I guess the intuitive design thing escapes you. At the turn of BC, metamorphosis was introduced to the game, and for a short period of time, warlocks could be tanks, and had every single tool, albeit temporarily, to be a tank. If not for that introduction to the game, I would not be saying anything about warlocks being tanks.

It isn't just the glyph all by itself that puts the icing on the cake for me either. Let's take a look at a demo warlock for a second and see what else it is all about...

I guess we should start with Dark Apotheosis, since that is the "hub" of the argument:

Threat increased by 500%? Why would a dps need this? And isn't this the same % all the other tanks have their threat throttled up to?
Magic damage reduced according to mastery rating.
Physical damage reduction based on mastery. This is definitely a tank ability.
Soulshatter (threat dump) becomes a taunt, identical to every tank's taunt currently in the game.
Fury ward, a magic reduction cooldown, more survival
Demonic Slash, this could be a dps ability, but it also involves gaining the warlock equivalent of what warriors and druids call rage. Call it what you want, it's essentially the same thing. Forget for a moment that it replaces a casted spell, though.
Having Dark Apotheosis up also triggers a nice bonus to armor thru Nether plating, which in truth looks a lot like DK blood presence, except scaled for a cloth wearer instead of a plate wearer.
This is where dark apotheosis ends.

Talents:
Dark Regeneration: 30% health heal, and a 25% boost to healing for 12 sec. Sounds like Vampiric Blood, a talent only granted to Blood DK's.
Soul Leech: Certain abilities heal you for 10% of the damage dealt. Vampiric regeneration, similar to Blood DK's.
Harvest life: A great spell to get the attention of multiple enemies, and drain their health. Combined with 500% threat increase, the potential is in the details.
Howling terror: The fact that warriors have intimidating shout doesn't necessarily make it a tank ability, but that comparison can still be made.
Mortal Coil: Let's ignor the fact that it fears. On bosses, they are most likely not going to be feared, but it does grant 15% of the warlock's health. Survival ability.
Shadowfury: AoE stun. This isn't altogether a sole tanking ability, so that is noted.
Soul link: If used cleverly with Grimoire of sacrifice, this results in an overall health increase, and if you use void walker as your sacrificed pet, you get another ability, Shadow Bulwark, that is all tank.
Sacrificial pact: Well, chances are you won't be using a pet while tanking, but if you were to, you could sac health from your pet for a shield. Or, you could create the shield and lose a little health, vs. a lot of it. Either way, it is a tank CD.
Dark Bargain: A warlock bubble! 8 sec immunity to attacks, and then you get 50% of the damage taken dealt to you over 8 sec. Damage reduction, hmm...
Grimoire of Sacrifice: Sac a demon, gain one ability from that demon, get a 20% health increase, 2% health regen every 5 seconds, and, if you sac a void walker, you get the ability Shadow Bulwark.
Shadow Bulwark: 30% health increase for 20 sec every 2 min. Yet another Survival CD.

Normal Warlock abilities:
Dark Soul: Knowledge: A CD that gives a crap load of mastery. What is Dark Apotheosis mastery? Physical and magical damage reduction.
Immolation aura: This ability resembles a variation of Consecration and Death and Decay.... except this ability targets the warlock, rather than the ground on which they stand, or a spot of which a death knight or glyphed pally would drop consecration/death and decay. Pretty nifty.
Unending resolve: 40% damage reduction for 8 sec every 3 minutes. Yet another of their many survival CD's.

So, that is a lot of tanking abilities. Survival abilities... There are no stretches here. Every ability listed duplicates a current existing tank's survival CD, ability or passive ability, and if it doesn't, it has no other useful application other than survival, which is basically what we expect tanks to do.
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90 Human Mage
17750

I still still stand behind my claim that I would rather have a dark warrior, a stone skinned giant, a nasty pit fiend or a large grizzly bear between me and something powerful than I would a drunken care bear. If monk tanks could be made viable off the dev team then shammies and warlocks should definitely be able to tank.


Yeah, it's not like Brewmasters had any kind of abilities that would have indicated they would be tanking before or anything (drunken brawler?).[/quote]

So, intuitively, Why is a brewmaster monk so able to tank, then? What creative ability do they have that makes them a clear cut choice for a tank, other than because Blizzard said so?

The case could be made for Guardian druids, they're bears. They have thick hides, nasty claws, and are, again, intuitively not something that can easily be taken down.

The case could be made for warriors and pallies. They are plate wearing, shield using warriors, and in the case of the paladin, they have healing abilities and protection spells to aid them in not dying.

The case could be made for DK's that they are dark, plate wearing, soul less warriors who have dark magic and vampiric regeneration to aid them in staying alive, while catching the attention of other things.

I've made my case about warlocks. They're demons ffs. Every bit as dangerous as a bear, and as fantasy lore since JRR Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons have shown, demons are among the most feared creatures that could be encountered. Now, warlocks can turn into them....

The case for a shaman is simple. Infuse them with Earth, the one ability not currently represented in the game with its own spec, and what you get is stone skinned giants. Basically, you have one of the Fantastic 4 as your tank. A tough nut to crack.

So, what was Blizzard's rationale behind why a drunk care bear could be a viable tank? He gets drunk and therefore becomes invincible??? Famous last words, right there....
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