4th spec for lock and shammy

100 Troll Hunter
16380
1. Yes, if you want to tank, everyone should be in a tanking specc. To make it COD terms, why are you sniping with a Pistol?

To put it in Halo Terms - Pistol Sniping is much more responsive than Spiner Rifle Sniping, even though Sniper Rifle has better accuracy farther away and more of a bang.

Also, the idea isn't to make the 4th spec a "weak" tank spec, but one as viable as a tank as the others. So, there is not Pistol anyways.
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90 Tauren Shaman
0
well no reply from GC yet.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8110
02/19/2013 10:21 PMPosted by Doublewopper
well no reply from GC yet.


Well of course not.
The thread contains the word "Shaman".
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90 Worgen Death Knight
12705
From the tank side of the fence, I'd love to see shaman and lock's with a tank spec. When dual spec was introduced in Wrath, it changed the dynamic of why I picked the classes to play. No longer did i have to be worried about 1 spec, I could gear and maintain 2 easily. I wasn't one to constantly respec.

Now, there are 5 tanks yes. But Warrior/Pally/DK are mostly the same experience from a dual spec point of view. Melee dps in plate. The buttons have different names but the gameplay is relatively the same. I have longed for a range spec to play as an off spec to my tanking role, but the only choice is boomkin (and despite multiple attempts, I just can't get into boomkin's gameplay).

Introducing a shaman or lock tank would open doors for me and I'd guess other tanks as well that may want some other choices and gameplay on the other specialization tab.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
I think Blizzard would be better off adding a 4th spec to all existing classes, opposed to coming up with a new class in a future expansion. Best ideas I can come up with at a glance:

Death Knight - Decay, ranged DPS. Uses some of the same toolkit as Frost or Unholy, just with a bow/gun/etc. Remove Black Arrow from Hunter Survival Spec (giving it another spell to do the same thign). Give to Decay, Make it sort of the "Dark Archer" of WC3 or more Necromancerish. Summons skellies and stuff.

Druid - Already has four specs. Just give them a review and some love so they don't feal left out.

Hunter - Ranger, melee tank. Dual wields. For all those hunters who want their blades back.

Mage - Blood, healing DPS. Unlike monk and priest who can DPS and do some healing, Blood would center around healing while doing some DPS. Something on the factor of 3-to-1 or 2-to-1. A true DPS heal spec. Steal Chloromancer from Rift, if you must.

Monk - Sunstriker, ranged DPS. WW is wind; Brewmaster is earth; Mistweaver is water. Like Shaman, monk has a fourth element that is not represented. That is fire. Chi-Ji, the crane. Etc. Focus would be on Spinning Fire Blossoms, (red) Chain Lightning and other skills.

Paladin - Judgement, ranged DPS. Gives holy a DPS option without having to gear ret.

Priest - Archon, shield tank. Because we don't have enough references to SC in the game yet.

Rogue - Swashbuckler, tank spec. Avoidance tank who uses dirty tricks and gadgets to overcome foes.

Shaman - Primal, tank spec. Uses stat scaling to allow them to tank in either Agility or Caster gear. Agility gear offers better avoidance, Caster gear better resistance, particularly on magic heavy fights.

Warlock - Demon Hunter, tank spec. Easiest one to do, IMO. Most of the work is already done.

Warrior - Deadeye, Uses bows/guns/etc. For those who want a ranged spec, but do not want the pet.

This would add 2 classes that use ranged weapons, 3-4 classes that could tank, and 1 class that could heal. It would eliminate the whole "pure" argument because there would not be any pures. If they did all that, and didn't monkey with the existing specs much, people would have a lot more options and people who got bored with a class might find it suddenly worth playing again.
Edited by Lightning on 2/20/2013 11:43 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Death Knight
15640
Yo what about warrior healers. I scream at people to boost morale.


Yeah, but last I checked, screaming at people never really heals them...


If "morale boosts" don't count as healing - then why does Victory Rush work, huh?

Really, though, the only ones I feel are a good idea is Monks and Shaman. It'd fit them gameplay-wise and thematically.

A ranged spec - or at least a melee/ranged hybrid spec that's meant to use Spinning Fire Blossom as a rotational move can be the start of it. It'd fit with the red crane theme. Spinning Fire Blossom is a pretty weird move right now. They're trying to move the melee-focused Windwalker away from using it for damage - but what if they didn't have to? There's classes out there who use ranged attacks as part of their melee rotation. Sure, Windwalkers are meant to be rolling and flying around and shredding things with their fists - so why not make a new monk that's got a different focus?

Shaman tanks can work, too. They've a history - they've a theme - and they're a hybrid class already, anyway.

A fourth Death Knight spec would be weird, though. Before Monks came around, Death Knights were just about the only class who acknowledged the different specs as part of their lore. A big part.

And there are only three of them. Blood. Frost. Unholy. No, it can't be a Death spec. Death is the class as a whole.

And there's really no call or historic precedent for something like a DK Ranged DPS or a DK healer (ha!), so it'd have to be a spec that either Tanked or did melee-DPS but in a slightly different way than the current ones. Sure, there's Frost Tanking or Blood DPS to call on for inspiration, but neither are that different from what we've got.
Edited by Sylassanna on 2/20/2013 9:09 PM PST
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100 Draenei Shaman
10240
If I want to tank, I'll play my DK.

If shamans get a tanking tree it means we'll get some of our baseline DPS and utility skills swapped to tank skills.

What you end up with is what I call the "watered down effect" seen with the 3-way hybrids like paladins, druids and monks.

I don't play 3-way hybrids, and if shamans got a tanking spec and our other utilities watered down as a result, it would ruin the class for me.

Never in the history of the game has Blizz added a new role to a class. Druids just got their feral tree split in half. And I hope Blizz never goes beyond that.

I want what I signed up for. A healer with a choice between casting and melee as a DPS spec.

If you want to tank, get off your $#@ and level a tanking toon like the rest of us. Don't expect free role handouts that will just end up ruining the experience for each respective class.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8110
02/21/2013 11:14 AMPosted by Tidestorm
If shamans get a tanking tree it means we'll get some of our baseline DPS and utility skills swapped to tank skills.


This is blatantly false... unless you are finding a revolutionary use for rockbiter weapon?
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100 Human Mage
18225
02/20/2013 09:08 PMPosted by Sylassanna


Yeah, but last I checked, screaming at people never really heals them...


If "morale boosts" don't count as healing - then why does Victory Rush work, huh?


A. Victory rush shouldn't exist, and the fact that it does is only Blizzard trying to turn warriors into DK's with shields, but we already have paladins, so that is really not all that smart.

B. Adrenaline rush has already been taken as an ability name, that is probably why Victory Rush was given that name. Seriously, we don't need a spell like Death Coil being castable from Warlocks and Death Knights, that are similar, look similar, but are clearly different. Blizzard finally addressed this and made warlocks cast something else.

C. This is Blizzard's game and ultimately, they'll do what they want anyway, at least until they screw up so badly that WoW takes a turn for the worst and ceases to be. I've already accepted that, but warriors actually healing people by shouting at them repetitively... that is too big a stretch.
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90 Human Warlock
5325
If someone wants to tank, they'll tank. Doesn't matter if they have to reroll/regear, they are going to do it. People who want to dps will dps. There are a very small amount of people who would actually change their warlock's/shaman's spec to tank in lfr. Most likely, someone maining a tank is going to try out the spec and stick with it. Adding another spec doesn't help tank numbers.

All those healing cooldowns listed for warlocks? They are for life tap, not tanking. As for DA, utility does not mean we should have a whole other spec made for it. DA should be used when a tank dies and you need time to brez, or if a brez is not available. Warlocks do not need to tank, nor should we. Some classes should be hybrids, but some should stay as pure dps.

Lastly, we have enough tank specs. We don't need any more. There is enough variety in what we have, and we don't need blizz adding another one to spend time on and balance. Just because a spec has tank-like utility doesn't mean it needs to tank. I guess no class can have utility without someone demanding another spec.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
02/21/2013 11:14 AMPosted by Tidestorm
What you end up with is what I call the "watered down effect" seen with the 3-way hybrids like paladins, druids and monks.


You mean kind of like the watered down effect, where enhance and elemental have to beg, plead, and promise risque favors to see any fixes, because resto dominates every aspect of that class? They suffer from that already.
Edited by Lightning on 2/21/2013 4:35 PM PST
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100 Human Mage
18225
If someone wants to tank, they'll tank. Doesn't matter if they have to reroll/regear, they are going to do it. People who want to dps will dps. There are a very small amount of people who would actually change their warlock's/shaman's spec to tank in lfr. Most likely, someone maining a tank is going to try out the spec and stick with it. Adding another spec doesn't help tank numbers.

All those healing cooldowns listed for warlocks? They are for life tap, not tanking. As for DA, utility does not mean we should have a whole other spec made for it. DA should be used when a tank dies and you need time to brez, or if a brez is not available. Warlocks do not need to tank, nor should we. Some classes should be hybrids, but some should stay as pure dps.

Lastly, we have enough tank specs. We don't need any more. There is enough variety in what we have, and we don't need blizz adding another one to spend time on and balance. Just because a spec has tank-like utility doesn't mean it needs to tank. I guess no class can have utility without someone demanding another spec.


To respond to your first paragraph, many people have multiple toons, and do tank, dps and heal all on the same account. By that particular truth, the very idea of someone rerolling, most don't need to do that; they can flavor of the month as they see fit, the same way I do. This said, if you honestly believe there would be a small number, you don't know that.... and on the same token, you have absolutely no idea how these tanks would perform, either. A person, like Melûsine, for example, who also is a prot warrior, a prot pally, a blood DK, and a guardian druid, and has his warlock as his main, if you think I, or people like me, could not figure out how to use a Dark Apotheosis spec if it had crit immunty added to it, you're wrong. I already know how to use it, and to be honest, there is no such thing as a tank that can be one shotted by an attack that would not one-shot a real tank. That is ridiculous.

On to the second paragraph, all those healing cooldowns listed are IDENTICAL to actual tank CD's and are NOT meant for life taps. And the fact that there are so many of them, it is no accident, either. The only accident was that Blizzard half-assed it when they made a glyph that turned the warlock demo spec on its head and created a tanking stance for it, and fundamentally changed abilities used by a demo warlock to adhere to a tank roll. I've said before and I'll say again, either go all the way with Dark Apotheosis, or get rid of it. But bear in mind, getting rid of it altogether, rather than embracing the idea that a demon is as capable, if not more capable than a bear, will likely be met negatively. More people would like to see an expansion of a role over a suppression of a role.

And lastly, who makes the decision that we have enough tanks? Seriously, if it is fun ,there will be a lot more warlock tanks on the front line of group tanking line ups, likely, the same ones who were prot warriors or bears or any other tanking class that decided to pull that warlock out of retirement and give them a whirl. If you're gonna make a statement that there is enough variety, as if it were fact, back it up with fact, not your opinion of how things should work. A lot of people commenting that these tanks should exist connected the dots, to come up with the fact that warlocks are only missing 1 tool from the kit to be an honest to god tank, crit immunity. Others have connected the dots to bring about why an earth warden shaman spec should exist, and while they are missing a few more tools in the toolkit to be an honest to god tank, they have some, nonetheless. Your comment about "I guess no class can have utility without someone demanding another spec.", you failed to mention that when a utility is as far reaching as Dark Apotheosis that it actually could create the potential for another role because of all the things it does, that maybe that should be given another look. From my standpoint, making a demonology warlock be able to pop meta for mad dps, and then pop DA to be a tank is too far reaching across the spectrum, and the 2 should be separated, so that the do not have the ability to bearcat.

Regardless of your take on this, warlocks have incredible ability as a tank, so long as they don't have to worry about being one shotted from a nasty critical. That said, they still require the ability to not be flattened like any other dps to even be considered and oh 5h1t tank, and since they don't have it, that means the DA glyph is either incomplete, or fundamentally flawed, either way, this looks crappy on the part of blizzard.
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90 Worgen Warlock
3890
just adding my 2 cents anyone remember the old mana shield you know the one with the 5 hp per mana, i remember tanking some stuff on my mage with that, but then again i used to tank on my lock to sac/old syphon life drain life searing pain.

to be honest though the only class i haven't tanked on at raid level is a priest not talking progressive raiding just lvl 60,70 when they were the level cap.

tools have been removed others have been added, some make things too easy others bring back some of the lost challenge, then you have vengeance the universal tank balancing too, how !@#$%^- OP is vengeance, lvl 80 soloing current content OP.

4 spec for everyone sounds like the way to go just bring back some of the old spell/skill/talents chances are they wouldn't have much that wasn't covered to make a 4th spec for everyone exept monks,

once upon a time anything serious it was warriors only as tanks,
then them pesky durods went what about me IMA BEAR LEMMI TANK, so blizzard looked at each other and said OK,
light filled pallys jumped on their highhorse screaming but i wear plate and shields let me tank, blizz shrugged the shoulders and said fine.
along came DK's blizz said ppfftt you dont need to use a shield to tank in plate here you go,
now we have some drunk panda who's had way to much to drink making them damn near bullet-proof in their leather chaps..........
all this time they have made content that the preferred tank for certain bosses/phases have not been tank classes, looking mainly at locks/shammys/hunters, locks for anything that dealt shadow damage shammys for fire/bolt/frost. shammys also lost their shield specialization along the way, hunter or lock for kite tanking fights.

there isn't much holding locks or shammys back from tanking, locks just need a 3% boost to there net survivability vengeance and a real taunt, shammys need a block mastery a persistent stoneform, taunt,crit immune and a 20% stam buff
Edited by Gothpuppy on 3/4/2013 10:41 PM PST
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100 Worgen Mage
12940
Original poster's info seems off.

Back in vanilla, pallies were ally only and shammies were horde only. But there never was a shammy tank spec. Shammies were dps/heals right from the start.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4015
02/08/2013 11:10 AMPosted by Methalos
Shaman Tanks - Dual Wield Shields

-Dave Kosak


I'd be soooo down for that.
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90 Worgen Warlock
3890
And pallys almost NEVER tanked.. Why? because they would be OOM in the first 45 sec.

Forgot about that little tid bit didnt ya all.

And dont even bring up druid tanks, they were rubbish compared to warriors the ONLY tank.


only in the hands of rubbish players, they had all the tools but the skill cap was considerable higher, high enough to make it beyond acceptable to the masses, admittedly if you were doing anything hardcore progression wise warriors were the only tank that was reliable enough to use
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