Is it just me?

90 Pandaren Monk
6860
I think there are a number of issues at play here. There was a pretty big change to how threat works, enough to where Omen was out for a while (at least through Curse), and it seems like tanks simply can't stand and have all the threat ever like at the end of Cata. We have to actively be maintaining aggro alongside active mitigation, and sometimes, raw damage and threat abilities are benched in favor of mitigation, and rightly so.

There's also such a big reliance on damage meters like Recount and Skada. It's all about numbers now, which is the saddest thing, because if you have good numbers but keep standing in !@#$, you don't get to raid and will only frustrate the people you play with. This reliance on numbers has led to the mentality of GOGOGOGOGOGOGO for DPS, where they'll pull even before the tank or healer is even in sight. I had a run in Temple before the first boss, healer had to step away. I decided to wait the 15 seconds for the healer. And what do two of the DPS do? Charge in and lock the three of us out. Guess who they called the bad one?

I dunno, it's just frustrating. I love to tank (heal too!), and I loathe DPSing, but it feels like the more gear we get, the more the game is being put into the hands of self-important DPS.
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To be fair, DPS got the shaft for a long, long time with being utterly at the mercy of self-important tanks and healers. Now that we can actually rely on you a bit less, people are getting pissy about it because 'it isn't the way things used to be'. So what? When i tank, i tell people upfront if i'm overwhelmed I will TRY to save us from wiping, but if I can't oh well don't pull so much next time. then again, I usually tank on a dk and have no problem snatching aggro back off of people even against crowds of trash, so maybe that's part of the reason.
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90 Human Warrior
7130
I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy PUGs BECAUSE of the fact that they tend to go a little bit unorthodox. It adds a little spice.

It's not like I have any other challenge, being stuck for the moment on a dead Alliance side where you can't even get enough people for challenge modes, let alone current content raiding. :/
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14900
02/09/2013 09:14 AMPosted by Odaen
ESPECIALLY when leveling, it's important to let the Tank pull first. The Tank has to establish aggro. If the DPS pulls too much, or the Tank isn't able to pull threat from the DPS (you run this risk especially in pugs, where the DPS may be better geared than the Tank. That doesn't make them a bad Tank.), then it's easier for the Healer to pull threat from the DPS, and then it's a wipe.
I would go the opposite way. When leveling, even with zero BoA gear, I never had issues with threat. Yes, it will take a few seconds, and the dps is going to take some damage, but nobody is getting one-shot in a typical non-heroic LFD (and with mists, even the heroics are pretty forgiving). At very low levels, tanks may not have many aoe threat generators (I believe druids get their first bear aoe at 22 or 24, and between 15 and there just trying to get aggro against a controlled pull of 3 guys can be a challenge), but between like 30 and 90 it's just not that huge.

I know many people are used to playing with a "correct" composition, and "correct" tactics for the intended compositions, and it's difficult for them to accept or enjoy other playstyles. Personally, I'm used to other games where finding a real tank might take hours (and WoW was like this before the LFD), so you just used roots and snares and pet tanks to run through with a bunch of dps and maybe a healer, so it doesn't bother me.

02/09/2013 12:50 PMPosted by Imil
we have this constantly moving line of mobs as the DPS runs away. Or worse, the mobs are now attacking everyone in the party and everyone is running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
I would call this bad dps. Good dps understand how to help the tank get aggro off them, regardless of who pulled or how the aggro happened. We know to pull melee over to the range of your aoe, or to LoS/interrupt casters for the same purpose. Hunters and locks can turn pet taunt on to give you a few extra seconds while your taunt comes back up. Et cetera. Too much chaos can lead to wipes, or just long dungeons. But a little chaos can spice things up, and even lead to faster dungeons.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15740
02/09/2013 12:27 AMPosted by Vaerolaeli
The thing is this: no playstyle is "correct".


Now thats just silly.
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90 Human Warrior
7715
OMG I LOVE YOU!

As a slightly geared (it's my off set) fury warrior...i can easily tank a dungeon with a semi-good healer, and the dungeon is an easy one. Because of this, i just pull whenever if the healer keeps healing me. However i hate when everyone in the group is fine with it, except the tank who get's all defensive. your one of the first tanks i've seen that realizes that if the DPS pulls....it's their problem, they better have a solution that doesnt involve the tank saving their read end.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8180
Sure, its annoying...but I don't get too defensive about it when it happens. I did Temple of the Jade Serpent the other day. We got to the area where you fight Lui Flameheart. As I was waiting for the group to catch up, I notice the mage charging in...pulling everything in the room with Arcane Explosion....I dunno, there was just something so satisfying about watching them die. Actually, every time I've gone through that dungeon a dps has aggroed that first group, both on accident and on purpose. Of course only when I'm tanking, I rarely saw it when I was leveling my healers lol.

I'm a really passive person, and I understand accidents do happen. Sometimes dps gets a little too close, no big deal. I can tell when its an accident. I only start to get annoyed when its a constant thing through the dungeon. I just finished one with the slowest healer I've ever seen. Always really far behind, and pretty slow with the heals too. I like to pull when the healer is at least in range, but not the warrior I was with. Its almost like he would try pull every group before I could just cuz. That's when I get annoyed.

If they really get to you, ignore them so you don't have to group with them again. This warrior was the first dps to annoy me enough to get an ignore from me :P
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
17205
I sympathize, but in my opinion the real problem is how bloody easy dungeons have become, even just starting out. Yes, yes, I've heard all the arguments as to why start of Cata and troll heroics weren't a good thing (I loved 'em). Without that feeling of danger from pulling aggro, however, why bother holding back? DPS can easily face-tank in heroics; I know I don't pull any punches and go full on nuts as destruction in five mans when capping valor, quite often end up being the tank with no problems, and sometimes even pull more if I'm feeling bored, knowing full well I can handle things. I'd love some feeling of danger (and challenge) back.
Edited by Kelvaren on 2/12/2013 1:43 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
7715
Yeah...u just pull and live. When i do tank dungeons if a DPS pulls ahead of mea (doubt it could actually happen with how i tank) i just continue on my business as if they never pulled, if it saves them so be it, if i dont, i just keep going. they can walk
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90 Night Elf Hunter
4745
that is very good question but it is very simple it isnot that hard for a dps to not pull threat if thay know what thay or doing i play a hunter and i only got one abillity that pulls besides my pet the thang is pp dont talk in mmo's enymore and most or unwilling to help other's on how to play the right way i wald licke to see a lot more helpfull peaple in mmorpg's and peaple worcking together and can we pleas gring the rpg back to the mmorpg pleas
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90 Night Elf Hunter
4745
ur cool but one thing i cald help if you tryed to tell pp what you think becuse the tank and heals or the leader of eny group if you know what i mean.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
10175
You yank it you tank it.

Back in Classic and Burning Crusade, DPS that pulls or rushes the tank would not be allowed near a raid. They would accrue such a bad rap so fast some guilds would think twice about allowing them in.
The job of the tank is to grab the attention of the creatures and hold it so the damage dealers can do their job without facing imminent death. Either these monsters need to get stronger or damage dealing classes need to get less survivability. The player tanking knows what they are able to handle. One of the most common things I have seen are DPS pulling extra mobs while I am already tanking a set. This "I want my gear and I want it now" method needs to stop.

For those who think that there is a new "dynamic", there isn't. A tank holds the agro. Not DPS, not the healer. Maybe if Blizzard took away Tricks of the Trade and Misdirection, and more tanks just let groups wipe people would finally learn that rushing the tank is bad.

An example; a friend of mine was tanking Heart of Fear, and had a phone call in between pulls. Because he took 15 seconds to answer the phone and not pull, the DPS pulled, wiped, and he was booted as a failtank. Really?

For DPS that rush tanks, and think its "ok", its like telling someone who DPS's to DPS faster. You will never DPS fast enough. You could one shot everything in the game, but that isn't good enough because you don't DPS fast enough. That is what a rushed tank feels like. Not only is it extremely frustrating, it only serves to discourage people from tanking, making you wait even longing in LFG/LFR queues.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15740
Except thats the difference of tanking and DPS...in so far as pulling...

There are a finite amount of mobs. There IS a "fast enough", most people are bad and don't though.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
10175
My point was a comparison between tanking fast enough and DPSing fast enough. There really isn't a set "fast enough" for either. Well, there is that elusive enrage timer. >.>

In reality, there is no purpose or profit in rushing the tank. Why rush the tank? What purpose does it serve other than risking the decimation of the your group to the jaws and blades of hungry rampant mobs? There is no justification, only impatience. If it isn't all about people being impatient, then why don't they just leave the group and wait on a group with a tank that is fast enough for them? They think of themselves, not other players and definitely not the group they are with. The group can replace a DPS pretty quick, so there is not an issue with that. But to rush, ridicule, demean and kick a tank for not going "fast enough" does not have any logic behind it whatsoever. Rushing the tank, if anything, has a higher chance of your instance taking longer due to wipe recovery. But of course, the Tank is obviously "fail".

Let the tank move at a pace they are comfortable with. It is not a control factor, or a leader factor, it is a mechanic factor. The group IS at the mercy of BOTH the healer and the tank, whether they like it or not. Pulling mobs the tank may or may not be able to control as an act of rebellion against a mechanic that revolves around does nothing to change it. The tank might not even see you pull mobs, thusly not picking them up until they have done enough damage to drain a healer of mana, or even kill a player or two. But of course, no matter what the DPS does, the tank is to blame for any and every wipe.

Same could be said for the tank pulling too fast. Healers need mana. DPS needs and uses mana. As a tank you should be mindful of pausing for these things too. I see tanks tear off quite often when a healer is running on empty. It goes both ways.

Fact is, tank should pull. Group should allow tank to pull. If tank is slow, group should ask the tank to please pick up the pace. Work with your group, with your tank, and with your healer. It isn't about you in a dungeon, or else you would not need to queue for 30 minutes looking for a tank.
Edited by Alìcia on 2/19/2013 4:58 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Warrior
8570
just train everything to the boss, that way they cant pull.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13355
02/08/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Odaen
If the DPS pulled, the Tank sat back and ate popcorn with the Healer while they watched said DPS die a horrible(ly funny) death.


I've been leveling my monk as a brewmaster and just doing dungeons. Some have been extremely frustrating. I've tanked for years since Vanilla. Tanks use to command respect and were "revered". I've played all the tank classes and mastered threat on all of them. Main tanked for my guild in BC and later in Wrath. But I noticed a paradigm shift in Cata. The changes made to healing made healing more complicated (at least at first) which made good healers hard to come by. Healers were relearning their classes (I know because I did Holy for about a year on my pally). By the end of Cata healers seemed to be getting the cred and respect that tanks used to have in previous expansions.

Now the only cred tanks seem to get these days is instant queues. Mainly because tanks don't want to tank dungeons or lfr because of the idiots. Dps that pull and think they'll live. I'm an excellent tank, I chain pull and hold threat, and a good healer can keep me up no matter what. But when a huntard has pet growl on, or a dk uses deathgrip, or just recently I had a warrior charging in on the next pull (even pulling a boss), it frustrates the !@#$ out of me. Honestly it why I've gone ret on my pally in MoP.

In all honest truth, blizzard made this game way way way too easy, so now an idiot with an axe thinks they can pull and have no clue what threat means. Call me sentimental but I miss the old days of attunements when you had to work to get geared and get into raids. If you could complete this task, you were ready to enter this raid or dungeon, and progression felt like you accomplished something. And in the end you knew the ins and outs of your class and role. Today it seems like people are just playing and not learning!

Maybe Blizzard could implement a system that punishes dps for pulling threat (even if a healer heals them). Like say if they're aren't queued as a tank and they pull threat a healer can't heal them.

(side note: deathknights - I know blizzard put a glyph that removes threat from deathgrip, but more than that they need to make it remove threat if they aren't in blood spec, because idiots don't know about glyphs at 60).
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