The case that this tier is overtuned

First off, I just want to state that this isn't a QQ thread. Blizzard has said in multiple posts that if we believe that there is an issue with difficulty, that we should provide information to them.

Please refrain from comments 'like i can do this, so there's no problem'. I'm super happy for you, but it doesn't mean that there isn't an issue.

Alright so here goes. My guild has been having issues clearing the content. we are currently 7/16. We aren't a bad group. The guild itself has been pretty good about staying semi current in previous tiers as far as i understand it(i just started raiding with them this tier). We do take raiding seriously but we have a rotation system so that people can get in there and raid. At this point we don't rotate out much so that's not really been a problem.

Anyway, after hitting the wall on Blade lord, I started to ask around to friends on other servers and was surprised to find out that they were all worse off than we were. So I hit up guild ox and did some research. Here is the results:

I randomly picked 10 servers (US). Below is a list of the amount of guilds that have cleared the tier and how many of them that have down some bosses. The results surprised me.

Guild completing tier |Guild doing heroics
3|3
8|8
3|3
74|68
4|3
9|9
2|2
9|8
50|46
5|5

*I realize that the sample size here is small, but it's because I'm trying to keep this small(ish?). I've done this over and over the last few days and the numbers are about the same.


There are two things that I can take away from this. 1) Not many guilds are clearing the content. 2) The majority that do clear the content are well into heroics.

So what does this tell me? First, it tells me that either we as players are getting worse, or that the content is too hard. Second, it tells me that either heroics are too easy or that mainly the guilds with the skill to clear heroic content are able to clear normal mode.

That right there is the biggest red flag to me. Guilds capable of doing heroics are mainly the ones clearing normal? This late in the tier?

Whatever the case is, it's discouraging to me and many others. Normals are really overly unforgiving and it's becoming less fun as time goes by.

My fear is that if Blizzards answer will be 'Well, when 5.2 hits you will out gear it and run it easily'. Then it's going to really break peoples spirits. I know it will break mine.

I'd personally rather go into a new tier a little bored on farm mode rather go into a new tier feeling inadequate for not being able to clear the last tier.

This is just my opinion. Either way I'm going to keep trying. I'm not happy with how things are going, but I'm not crying about it either. I'll keep at it until enough people /gquit to the point where we can't get enough people to form a group. (3 down so far)

I just wanted to report my findings. Thanks for the time!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14095
02/08/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Ikonik
So what does this tell me? First, it tells me that either we as players are getting worse, or that the content is too hard.


It's the former. There are various reasons for this, but long story short, it's because of Blizzard's design decisions.

What exactly is it that you're wiping to on Blade Lord? The only thing I can possibly imagine people getting hung up on is the final phase. In that phase, there are only three things I can imagine being a problem: Healing, the enrage timer, or people being bad and standing in tornadoes. If it's the first, you need better healers. There isn't a whole lot that can be done about that other than better healers. If it's the second, you might want to try having your whole team, save the tank, stay behind when the boss is about to transition and have the rest of your team run along the sides of the room to quickly make it to the opposite side before he flies over. This saves you a lot of time because you avoid having to dodge tornadoes at all. If it's the third, then your team actually is

02/08/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Ikonik
a bad group
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12995
The content presents a challenge, however it's never been impossible, all encounters are some sort of check, either dps/healing/tank gear.
From my personal perspective, the playerbase has gone downhill since the introduction of lfr, my guild has recruited 2-3 people over the past little while that have just been unable to deal with not standing in bad.

I'm all for lfr because it lets those who can't raid see the encounters, however the fact that most mechanics are easily ignored with little impact on the success rate of the fight doesn't teach people how to play better.

tl:dr

The playerbase is getting worse, content is fine.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8200
This tier is all about understanding mechanics and executing them well and consistently. Hit me up in game if you would like to discuss Blade Lord strategy. Likeaaboss#1689 Usually on after 8pm pst.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12200
You find it strange that once people clear normal they start on heroics? What? You want them to just farm normal modes at that point? This complaint makes no sense.

Your numbers are presented in a vacuums. How many guilds are therein total? How successful were they in the past? This isn't just a small sample size, it's not even close to useful for reaching the kind of conclusions you are reaching with it.
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90 Human Death Knight
7475
If you are having trouble with content its your group.

Blizzard has only really made a mistake with releasing too difficult content once in Vanilla with C'Thun which they rectified and he was World Firsted shortly after.

Mu'ru is a close second but really all of SW was made to be a massive headache to keep hardcore raiders busy, though I do think he was nerfed eventually.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14095
If you are having trouble with content its your group.

Blizzard has only really made a mistake with releasing too difficult content once in Vanilla with C'Thun which they rectified and he was World Firsted shortly after.

Mu'ru is a close second but really all of SW was made to be a massive headache to keep hardcore raiders busy, though I do think he was nerfed eventually.


Pretty much this, really. There really isn't a situation where normal mode can be "too difficult" anymore, unless it is numerically impossible. We have LFR for those who can't handle normal now. Normal mode is no longer the easy mode that it was in Wrath/late Cataclsym. It actually offers a challenge again. It's now the middle ground. It's not tuned to be completed by everyone, nor should it be.
Edited by Vanarela on 2/8/2013 7:58 AM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
02/08/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Ikonik
So what does this tell me? First, it tells me that either we as players are getting worse, or that the content is too hard. Second, it tells me that either heroics are too easy or that mainly the guilds with the skill to clear heroic content are able to clear normal mode.


Players are getting worse. This is partly on the players and partly on Blizzard. It's on Blizzard because the game doesn't teach the player how to play it at all and there's no transition into raiding. It's on the players because the players refuse to adapt and learn; players would rather have free epics.

The game's heroics are not too easy. It's just that those guilds are the ones with driven players. The ones who decided they were going to invest a few days learning how to play their classes and how to handle raid mechanics.

The only fight that was "overtuned" was Garalon the first night Heart of Fear released. Then he got hotfixed overnight.
Edited by Hyjinx on 2/8/2013 8:02 AM PST
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I'm surprised (or maybe not) that Blizzard seems determined to unlearn the lessons they learned in Cata.

For all of the (somewhat deserved) !@#$ that Dragon Soul got, it was a wildly successful tier. Most guilds were able to complete normal modes, and many cleared or deeply progressed into heroic modes.

The gradually stacking debuff kept guilds from getting stuck, and kept people raiding, long after the 8 bosses had grown stale.

Looking at Tier 14, and the completion numbers are pathetic, Wowprogress is showing normal competion rations for HoF at around 30% (which ironically is the same as ToES).

Blizzard comes back with the idea of nerfing content after its no longer relevant (who is going to raid old normal modes) so who knows what they are thinking.
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90 Goblin Hunter
11845
What is your issue on Blade lord? He isn't an overly complicated boss and isn't one I typically see guilds stuck on for progression. All range and healers maintain /range 4 I think it is, stack when he disappears, go back to /range 4. Rinse repeat until he picks everyone up. Have a healing set up for that first tornado. At ~12% step into the side windstream to get to the other side quickly, tanks remain behind to push boss. Kill him.

Your 'analysis' doesn't really show much. The content is difficult but it isn't overtuned.

Joosen, DS was not a 'wildly successful' tier. I don't know what fricked up world where player completion percentage is the standard by which we measure success of a tier but DS was one of the worst tiers Blizz ever released.
Edited by Sayne on 2/8/2013 8:06 AM PST
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02/08/2013 08:01 AMPosted by Hyjinx
So what does this tell me? First, it tells me that either we as players are getting worse, or that the content is too hard. Second, it tells me that either heroics are too easy or that mainly the guilds with the skill to clear heroic content are able to clear normal mode.


Players are getting worse. This is partly on the players and partly on Blizzard. It's on Blizzard because the game doesn't teach the player how to play it at all and there's no transition into raiding. It's on the players because the players refuse to adapt and learn; players would rather have free epics.

The game's heroics are not too easy. It's just that those guilds are the ones with driven players. The ones who decided they were going to invest a few days learning how to play their classes and how to handle raid mechanics.

The only fight that was "overtuned" was Garalon the first night Heart of Fear released. Then he got hotfixed overnight.


Given that the top guilds steamrolled through all of the heroic raids within a few weeks of their release, and that most other guilds (50-60%) have stalled out in normal HoF, it seems silly to say that they've done a good job tuning the tier.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14095
I'm surprised (or maybe not) that Blizzard seems determined to unlearn the lessons they learned in Cata.

For all of the (somewhat deserved) !@#$ that Dragon Soul got, it was a wildly successful tier. Most guilds were able to complete normal modes, and many cleared or deeply progressed into heroic modes.

The gradually stacking debuff kept guilds from getting stuck, and kept people raiding, long after the 8 bosses had grown stale.

Looking at Tier 14, and the completion numbers are pathetic, Wowprogress is showing normal competion rations for HoF at around 30% (which ironically is the same as ToES).

Blizzard comes back with the idea of nerfing content after its no longer relevant (who is going to raid old normal modes) so who knows what they are thinking.


This is exactly the problem the OP is dealing with. Rolling raid nerfs are not good for raiding, nor are they good for the playerbase. It gets into everyone's heads that it's okay to suck because the content will be nerfed so you can do it in time. That is not good game design and it degenerates the quality of the playerbase in both attitude and ability.

Blizzard has more control over the playerbase than they and most of the playerbase realises. If Blizzard sticks to their guns and keeps giving us challenging raid content and doesn't nerf it while it's relevant (or preferably at all, but 5.2 has thrown that out the window), the playerbase will adapt. Eventually challenging content will be the norm again.

Besides, LFR exists. Nerfing content for accessability does not need to happen. Ever. The content is there for everyone to see in LFR. Normal and heroic are for those that want a challenge. If normal and heroic are too hard for you, that content is not designed for you. Period. Go back to LFR.
Edited by Vanarela on 2/8/2013 8:08 AM PST
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What is your issue on Blade lord? He isn't an overly complicated boss and isn't one I typically see guilds stuck on for progression. All range and healers maintain /range 4 I think it is, stack when he disappears, go back to /range 4. Rinse repeat until he picks everyone up. Have a healing set up for that first tornado. At ~12% step into the side windstream to get to the other side quickly, tanks remain behind to push boss. Kill him.

Your 'analysis' doesn't really show much. The content is difficult but it isn't overtuned.

Joosen, DS was not a 'wildly successful' tier. I don't know what fricked up world where player completion percentage is the standard by which we measure success of a tier but DS was one of the worst tiers Blizz ever released.


I measure the success of a tier by the number of players that successfully cleared the tier. I'm willing to bet that the more people raided DS than any other raid in the history of WoW, with ICC a close second.

I wouldn't suggest that DS had the best or most original fights obviously.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7470
<----- LFR is that way bud
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Honestly, Blade lord is just where our bottle neck is at this point. How anyone can argue

You find it strange that once people clear normal they start on heroics? What? You want them to just farm normal modes at that point? This complaint makes no sense.

Actually, that's not what I said. What I said is that if you look at my list almost no groups were 16/16 only. Heroics are supposed to be hard. To me a normal tier would have a lot more people being 16/16 with no heroics. What this says to me is that only groups able to clear heroic content are clearing normal content.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
I think that people forget to be honest. T13 was so facerollable that poeple for got about mechanics. T12 and 11 were just as difficult, T11 maybe more so, than T14. There are very few checks this tier beside mechanics. You just can't brute force your way through it like you could in t13.

To be honest it is very refreshing.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12995
02/08/2013 08:07 AMPosted by Joosenjin


Players are getting worse. This is partly on the players and partly on Blizzard. It's on Blizzard because the game doesn't teach the player how to play it at all and there's no transition into raiding. It's on the players because the players refuse to adapt and learn; players would rather have free epics.

The game's heroics are not too easy. It's just that those guilds are the ones with driven players. The ones who decided they were going to invest a few days learning how to play their classes and how to handle raid mechanics.

The only fight that was "overtuned" was Garalon the first night Heart of Fear released. Then he got hotfixed overnight.


Given that the top guilds steamrolled through all of the heroic raids within a few weeks of their release, and that most other guilds (50-60%) have stalled out in normal HoF, it seems silly to say that they've done a good job tuning the tier.


heroics aren't designed to be cleared by everyone come the next content patch, they are designed to provide a challenge for those who can clear normals with ease.

normals are laughable, every mechanic blizzard designs is built around the purpose that decent players can beat it if they deal with the mechanics properly and can play their class/spec at an average level.

Tuning for encounters is fine, it's the quality of players that makes it seem otherwise.
If people spent half the time they spend complaining about normals being too hard learning their classes better or figuring out how to deal with the mechanics that are blocking them from progressing, they would all be working on heroics right now.

Blizzard spoiled the playerbase with dragon soul, and now that content actually presents a challenge, all these cata born raiders can't cope with it, thats all there is to it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14095
02/08/2013 08:09 AMPosted by Erras
I don't know what fricked up world where player completion percentage is the standard by which we measure success of a tier but DS was one of the worst tiers Blizz ever released.


You've clearly never been in Firelands... DS was a massive step up from that debacle, even if it wasn't all that great.


Are you kidding? There were only two flaws with T12: It was too short and there was too much trash. Other than that, it was fantastically designed. All of the fights were interesting and challenging, and this includes the trash. Interesting trash. That almost never happens. When the possibility exists that you wipe on trash, the trash is good. At that point it starts to feel like less of an obstacle and more of a meaningful portion of the content, and it was.
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