The case that this tier is overtuned

100 Goblin Priest
8385

I measure the success of a tier by the number of players that successfully cleared the tier. I'm willing to bet that the more people raided DS than any other raid in the history of WoW, with ICC a close second.

I wouldn't suggest that DS had the best or most original fights obviously.


The DS completion numbers suggest that it was undertuned, not that it was successful.
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100 Troll Priest
10635
Guild completing tier |Guild doing heroics
3|3
8|8
3|3
74|68
4|3
9|9
2|2
9|8
50|46
5|5
Out of how many guilds on the server? What's the population like for each server. Are these PvP/PvE servers? Omitting data to make a point isn't very good for your point. We want ratios, not one sided counts.

02/08/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Ikonik
There are two things that I can take away from this. 1) Not many guilds are clearing the content. 2) The majority that do clear the content are well into heroics.
Or is it that the content is now old and those that focus on PvE have completed the PvE content.
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100 Tauren Druid
9500
The vast disparity in your survey results should point to you that your methodology is imperfect. You're looking at two servers with 50+ guilds completing the tier on normal, and eight more servers with single-digit completions.

And you're taking your prejudice as the thesis: "My guild is stuck on Blade Lord, therefore the content is overtuned". And then to prove your point, you grab clear data from ten very different servers and use comparisons of 16/16 N to even 01/16 H to "prove" that completing normal mode for the tier requires a group capable of doing heroic content. My guild's raid group is 9/16 (started working on Amber Shaper last night - talk about a fight that is a faceroll in LFR but requires thought in normal!) ... but I'd be willing to bet that we could get at least 01/16 heroic if we wanted to -- putting us magically in the "working on heroics" category of your survey.

Here are other conclusions that could be drawn from your survey:

• Many guilds are ahead of your guild in progress, so you're not very good.
• Heroic modes are undertuned (since the ratio of cleared normal to heroic downs is nearly 100%).
• Early heroics have less difficulty than late normal mode.

If I took your logic, here are some conclusions I would have made in the past:

When I first started raiding in TBC, I would have said that Moroes was WAY overtuned.
During the first month of Cata, I would have spent a lot of time claiming that Halfus was way too hard.
In October, I would have complained about Stone Guard.

Keep working, and identify the problems that are causing your wipes. If you're unsure about why you're wiping, compare your attempts to sucessful attempts (preferably by same/similar group comps and players with similar gear levels). Eventually, you'll break through. My group spent two weeks wiping on Stone Guard, and then blew through 3/6 MSV on the night that SG was downed. Hit another brick wall on Elegon, but then the week that Elegon went down, finished up MSV and got a third done with HoF.

You may also just be needing that boost of gear. Going off your guild's info on wow-heroes, you've got one tank geared nicely for finishing up t14, but your other tanks could still be pulling in heroic 5man gear for improvement. Overall, you have a big gear disparity in your guid: about a dozen toons with a score over 7000, and then the next dozen are 6000-6500. A little more survivability, a little more HPS, a little more DPS -- these could all be the things that suddenly "click" one week and you're off to rocking the raid.
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90 Orc Monk
11190
02/08/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Ikonik
I just want to state that this isn't a QQ thread.


You can state this all day long if you want but it doesn't change the fact that it is.

We get that you are stuck on Bladelord but why are you stuck on it, you have given absolutely no data as to why.

What is your group makeup?
Is you group stacking up?
Are people getting hit by tornadoes?
Are you having healing issues?
Are your healers topping you are before the final phase?
Are you hitting enrage?
Is there a Warlock in your group?
Edited by Ruderlyn on 2/8/2013 8:20 AM PST
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<----- LFR is that way bud

Super helpful. You sir are paragraph 2.
If I cleared previous content (be it on this or other characters) and having issues with this content, that doesn't indicate that there might be a problem? If i look through 50 random servers and almost never see more than 15 guilds having cleared the content, that's not a sign there may be a problem? If out of those 15 guilds 14 are well into heroics and only one of them is struggling with heroics, that's not a sign that normals are tuned closer to heroics than to normals?
That's a ridiculous elitist statement. and it's not useful at all. So why bother posting a comment other than to self congratulate your ability to do something better than others. You are the problem, not the solution.
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100 Goblin Priest
8385
<----- LFR is that way bud

Super helpful. You sir are paragraph 2.
If I cleared previous content (be it on this or other characters) and having issues with this content, that doesn't indicate that there might be a problem? If i look through 50 random servers and almost never see more than 15 guilds having cleared the content, that's not a sign there may be a problem? If out of those 15 guilds 14 are well into heroics and only one of them is struggling with heroics, that's not a sign that normals are tuned closer to heroics than to normals?
That's a ridiculous elitist statement. and it's not useful at all. So why bother posting a comment other than to self congratulate your ability to do something better than others. You are the problem, not the solution.


I will acknowledge that normals are closer in tuning to heroics than they are to LFR.

If the ideal scale was:

LFR------Normal------Heroic

It's more like

LFR---------Normal---Heroic

So hitting normals for the first time is somewhat jarring, but not because normals are overtuned. It's because LFR is undertuned, which goes back to the playerbase being worse.

OP, what's your specific issue on Blade Lord?
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This is exactly the problem the OP is dealing with. Rolling raid nerfs are not good for raiding, nor are they good for the playerbase. It gets into everyone's heads that it's okay to suck because the content will be nerfed so you can do it in time. That is not good game design and it degenerates the quality of the playerbase in both attitude and ability.

Blizzard has more control over the playerbase than they and most of the playerbase realises. If Blizzard sticks to their guns and keeps giving us challenging raid content and doesn't nerf it while it's relevant (or preferably at all, but 5.2 has thrown that out the window), the playerbase will adapt. Eventually challenging content will be the norm again.

Besides, LFR exists. Nerfing content for accessability does not need to happen. Ever. The content is there for everyone to see in LFR. Normal and heroic are for those that want a challenge. If normal and heroic are too hard for you, that content is not designed for you. Period. Go back to LFR.


You haven't completed HoF on normal (opened in October), and haven't even touched ToES (opened in November). Your guild was able to successfully clear Dragon Soul on heroic (after the successive nerfs).

So tell me what you find better. Raids that you'll never do, but are extra challenging. Or content that is challenging, but gradually gets easier and allows you to complete the tier.

Second, !@#$ the idea that players will get better if Blizzard just keeps content difficult. Players' still levels are relatively fixed. You don't get better because Blizzard makes punishing content, you get frustrated and lose interest.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14095
02/08/2013 08:22 AMPosted by Erras
Are you kidding? There were only two flaws with T12: It was too short and there was too much trash. Other than that, it was fantastically designed. All of the fights were interesting and challenging, and this includes the trash. Interesting trash. That almost never happens. When the possibility exists that you wipe on trash, the trash is good. At that point it starts to feel like less of an obstacle and more of a meaningful portion of the content, and it was.


Firelands was so pathetic that it nearly killed my raiding group. Several people left because it was just so boring and horrible. I actually was convinced to come back from retirement (I quit the previous tier... I hated Cata that much) during the very end of that content patch. I only dealt with Firelands for like three weeks before DS came out, and it was just god awful the entire time. Never once did I really enjoy anything of the whole raid.

I guess we are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. I literally consider Firelands to be the very worst raid in the history of the game.


How much of it did you do? Pre-nerf Alysrazor was one of the most fun encounters I have ever experiences. Ragnaros was as good a fight as the Lich King and that fight was glorious.

The only fight in there I didn't find all that interesting was Rhyolith simply because it was so simple. He had basically one meaningful mechanic. The rest of the bosses were fantastic, though.

To say Dragon Soul was a better raid is a ridiculous farce. Every boss in that raid had basically one mechanic. They for all so mindnumbingly simple encounters, and Blizzard even managed to make the Deathwing fights tedious instea dof epic. The final encounter of the entire expansion had two phases. Two. The Lich King had what, four? Even Ragnaors was more complex than Deathwing by a country mile.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8900
02/08/2013 08:30 AMPosted by Erras
You don't get better because Blizzard makes punishing content, you get frustrated and lose interest.


No, bad players get frustrated and quit. Good players will overcome it.


This... I can definantly see why people dislike content being this hard... but you shouldn't view it like that.

You should view it as a way to improve yourself... I know I have.
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I measure the success of a tier by the number of players that successfully cleared the tier. I'm willing to bet that the more people raided DS than any other raid in the history of WoW, with ICC a close second.

I wouldn't suggest that DS had the best or most original fights obviously.


The DS completion numbers suggest that it was undertuned, not that it was successful.


Compare the number of people that completed Heroic DS pre-nerf to the number of people that completed it after the stacking nerf.

I'll spare you the exercise. Very few people completed the tier pre-nerf (meaning the tier was sufficiently challenging), and a lot of people cleared it post-nerfs (meaning people continued to raid, didn't get stuck, and were able to progress all the way to completion).

Given that it met both goals of providing challenging content (pre-nerf) and allowed a very high number of people to complete it (post nerf), I would say that Blizzard did a great job with the tuning of the tier.
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100 Goblin Priest
8385

So tell me what you find better. Raids that you'll never do, but are extra challenging. Or content that is challenging, but gradually gets easier and allows you to complete the tier.


Raids where there's no guarantee of success, tbh.
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02/08/2013 08:20 AMPosted by Ruderlyn
I just want to state that this isn't a QQ thread.


You can state this all day long if you want but it doesn't change the fact that it is.

We get that you are stuck on Bladelord but why are you stuck on it, you have given absolutely no data as to why.

What is your group makeup?
Is you group stacking up?
Are people getting hit by tornadoes?
Are you having healing issues?
Are your healers topping you are before the final phase?
Are you hitting enrage?
Is there a Warlock in your group?


This here is kind of where i think there's a problem. We rotate players so sometimes there's a learning issue. But we do the mechanics. we stack, try to top off, etc.
The problem that I see is that these fights have a lot of dynamics, and that's great, but they also are fairly unforgiving. MY feeling is that things like raid comp or maybe loosing a dps, or maybe missing 1 or two people in a stack one time shouldn't mean a wipe. You have to be near perfect.
The argument that you should be near perfect is understandable to be able to be near perfect, but to me, that's hard mode. easy mode would be the faceroll that is lfr and hard mode would be unforgiving heroics. Normal mode, at least to me, should be that it's challenging but forgiving. You shouldn't have to have a specific raid comp in a normal encounter. You shouldn't have to min max on normal.

The idea that 'just go to lfr is demeaning. It's not like we are failures doomed to special ed because we have learning problems.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14095
02/08/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Joosenjin
Second, !@#$ the idea that players will get better if Blizzard just keeps content difficult. Players' still levels are relatively fixed. You don't get better because Blizzard makes punishing content, you get frustrated and lose interest.


With that logic, solving larger and more complicated math equations doesn't make you any better at solving math problems. Our ability to do math is fixed, right? No, you get better by doing more challenging math problems.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/08/2013 08:36 AMPosted by Erras
Ragnaros was no where near as good as the Lich King. I truly have no idea how anyone could even have that thought. >_>


Because you did the normal version, H Rag was epic.
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100 Goblin Priest
8385
02/08/2013 08:35 AMPosted by Ikonik
The problem that I see is that these fights have a lot of dynamics, and that's great, but they also are fairly unforgiving. MY feeling is that things like raid comp or maybe loosing a dps, or maybe missing 1 or two people in a stack one time shouldn't mean a wipe. You have to be near perfect.


These don't necessarily equal a wipe. My guild got normal Blade Lord for the first time last night and one of our dps dc'd and died in phase 1. Most mistakes can be compensated for.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
SSC
12740
I think any tier where your seeing a large amount of players no longer raiding has some sort of problem. It could be with the players or with the content, but there's no doubt that alot of people are stuck very late in this tier and not going to clear it on normal.

I donn't know what the exact percent of people that should be able to clear a normal mode raid is but I think it should be higher then it is as of right now.
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90 Goblin Hunter
11845
What is your issue on Blade lord? He isn't an overly complicated boss and isn't one I typically see guilds stuck on for progression. All range and healers maintain /range 4 I think it is, stack when he disappears, go back to /range 4. Rinse repeat until he picks everyone up. Have a healing set up for that first tornado. At ~12% step into the side windstream to get to the other side quickly, tanks remain behind to push boss. Kill him.

Your 'analysis' doesn't really show much. The content is difficult but it isn't overtuned.

Joosen, DS was not a 'wildly successful' tier. I don't know what fricked up world where player completion percentage is the standard by which we measure success of a tier but DS was one of the worst tiers Blizz ever released.


I measure the success of a tier by the number of players that successfully cleared the tier. I'm willing to bet that the more people raided DS than any other raid in the history of WoW, with ICC a close second.

I wouldn't suggest that DS had the best or most original fights obviously.


So you would consider a tier successful if they nerfed everything down to lfr requirements so everyone could finish it? You don't see the problem with your measuring standard, especially when you admit that DS didn't have great fights? Firelands was a mediocre tier, fights really weren't that bad and honestly heroics in that tier should have been harder.
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